That's really interesting since it helps me sleep. Like ray said that a little thyroid will help some sleep and would keep others awake. T3/cynomel at bedtime would make me more alert whereas 1/4 Armour helps my sleep.

I think it's mostly the hormones that people can react to differently sleep wise... Whereas, the raw carrot is probably something that would not induce sleep for almost anyone.

Did you see what Andrew wrote about the raw carrot in RP Fans? Good little summary of the job it does. This is irrespective of whether we feel it doing it's work. Not like those hormones....

I take thyroid at bedtime. Seems to work well for me and helps me sleep. I am still experimenting with progesterone. (Just started taking that about a month ago.) It makes me sleepy and relaxed and also lowers my blood sugar. I have been taking it in the afternoon but then I need to take a nap and feel kind of drowsy all evening. So the past 2 nights I took it at bedtime. BAD IDEA. I forgot about the low blood sugar part. When I took it in the afternoon, I would have a snack or dinner and bring up the blood sugar. But taking it at bedtime, I slept through the low blood sugar early warning symptoms. By the time I woke up, I was so weak, I was sure I would collapse, just trying to get to the kitchen. I couldn't imagine WHAT was wrong with me. (Heart? Blood pressure? Blood sugar?) I came back to life after I ate, slowly but surely. Then this morning, same thing! Finally I connected the dots and realized that the problem started as soon as I started taking the progesterone at bedtime. Live and learn - the hard way!

Thomas is right. These hormones have a lot of benefits, but they can really mess you up, too!

Interesting. I am going to take some tonight. I have been taking mine in the morning. I typically wake up in the middle of the night and have difficulties falling back to sleep. Nothing helps, except keeping calm. I have tried drinking milk and sugar at that time. Doesn't help. Wondering if the cortisol suppressing effects of the pregnenolone might do the trick. Will try it tonight. Worst that can happen is that I get a bad night's sleep (which tends to happen anyway).

Ok, I have been doing this Ray Peat diet for 10 months now, and I think it's time to take stock. This will be a long post. I hope others that have been doing the diet for over six months will do the same. It would be interesting to compare notes. I think it's important to do such a self-assessment. I have done different diets over the years, and it's so easy to engage in self-deception. People get on these groups and hear other people talking about how "great" they are doing and feel pressured to join in the "everything's great" chorus. Of course, maybe such people were doing "great" on the diet, but just as many people were not doing "great" but were saying so either to "fit in" or because they were indulging in "mind fuck" in an attempt to talk themselves into feeling great. I plead guilty to having done this in the past. For example, in the initial stages of Paleo, I might have told you that I was doing "great". What I really meant was that I got my body weight down to 10 percent (Paleo is good for that) and that I enjoyed posting to Paleohacks Of course, I did not (at first anyway) mention that Paleo had made me tired, irritable, constipated and diminished my libido.

My report will be mostly "subjective" accompanied by some so-called "objective" lab results. If your lab results are good but you feel like shit, well, something still is not right. If I had to give the Ray Peat diet a school grade, I would give it a "B-" (Paleo, by the way, would get a "F", WAPF would get a "C").

Now to be fair, I will admit that I have not been 100 percent peatarian, 100 percent of the time, but I have been close enough. I have cut out most PUFAs, but being in a family, I still do use olive oil (a MUFA) for cooking some times. Otherwise it's butter and coconut oil. Never canola oil or something like that, unless on the rare occasions that I go to restaurants. I drink between a quart and half gallon of milk a day, and usually a quart of OJ. I eat meat once a day. About once a week, I will have chicken or duck. Once a week, I have some liver (as pate'). I eat oysters or clams about 5 times a week. My evening meal usually has some kind of vegetable, usually greens, zucchinis or bell pepper. I will sometimes have potato or white rice. About once a week, I will eat a little wheat in the form of Chinese dumplings (jiaozi).

My lab results that I did in March look great, by the way. Despite all the talk, I was actually a little worried about what my Fasting glucose levels might be. It came back an 86 (66-99 scale). On Paleo or the WAPF diet I could never get it below 99 or 100. That's interesting, and jives with Peat, that a high sugar diet would actually have this effect.

My ferritin level was 129 (30-400). Not perfect, but previous to Peat, it had been above 200. Interestingly, I hadn't done anything to bring it down besides reducing red meat consumption and drinking coffee. I didn't donate blood drawn during this period, as is recommended for men.

My testosterone level was 792 which is quite good for a man of my age (52). Moving on, my prolactin was 8.4 (4.0-15.2). My TSH was 1.2. Although not perfect (Peat says should be below 1) it was certainly better than what it had been all times previously (above 3).

I won't bore you for now with the other test results, although they were all very good.

What area of my life has improved from eating this way? My weightlifting numbers!!!!! I do Olympic Style weightlifting, and I can unequivocally announce that I have dramatically improved the weight I can push. I can only attribute this to the diet, since there have been no other changes in technique or training. I suspect that this has to do with the dramatic increase in carbs. Paradoxically I improved in an area of activity that Peat would probably disapprove of (exercise)!

Despite that I have not seen much in the way of manifest improvements, to be honest. My sleep has always been my achilles heel, and it's probably the main reason I have pursued these various crazy-ass diets over the years. My intellectual life has always been of paramount importance to me, and the sleep problem severely interferes with it. When I was younger, I had hoped to return to university to get my PhD, but the fogginess due to the insomnia discouraged me from pursuing such a rigorous course of study. That makes me sad. As a result, I must admit that any diet (or therapeutic model) will be ultimately judged by whether it improves my sleep or not. Paleo definitely hurt my sleep. The Peat diet seems to have no effect on it at all, good or bad (although the addition of bromocriptine definitely hurt my sleep while I was experimenting with it). Peat indicated in one of his interviews that reducing parathyroid hormone should improve sleep. Calcium, according to him, should reduce the PTH. I was especially hopeful when I added back in a lot of calcium, as I had for many years not eaten very much dairy. Well, my test results showed a much improved PTH level 35 (15-65). That's not perfect, but it's good enough that my sleep should have improved. It did not.

For that reason, I am relatively disappointed in the diet. I don't intend to throw the baby out with the bathwater though. I am considering being less restrictive. I am convinced that low PUFA is good. I am convinced that moderately high-carb is good. I am not convinced that the restricted range of fruits is good. Increased dairy is good, too, though I have become a little over-weight (by about 10 pounds), even though I am drinking 1 or 2 percent milk. I am also not convinced that restricting vegetables is necessary. I am not sure about most of the supplements (niacinamide, aspirin, Vitamin E, pregnenolone). They may be effective, but it's not abundantly evident. As should be clear from previous posts, I have had bad experiences with the T3 and bromocriptine. I realize that the bad reactions I had with such is particular to me. I am not making a generalized statement about them, except to warn people to be vigilant.

Anyway, I would like to hear what others think and, more importantly, I would like to read how you assess your results so far.

I followed Ray Peat's dietary recommendations for one year. Initially I experienced some health improvements, mostly thyroid related, for a few months, then I plateaued for a few months, and then the last 6 months, I spiraled down. During the one year, I gained 30 lbs. (Not a good thing.) My lifelong sleep disorder reached an all time worst, with my staying awake until 6 or 7 A.M.. Thyroid related problems worsened - hair loss, skin problems, edema, depression, etc. I had constant battles with constipation, even having an impaction at one point.

After one year, I decided to try something else. I started following a modified version of RBTI. I didn't take the supplements or get a consultant or following their drinking regimen, but I tried their recommended meal times and types of foods that are recommended at different meal times, as well as avoiding some of their "no no foods", such as pork.

This meant eating breakfast at 7 or 8 A.M., and eating mostly carbs, such as french toast or pancakes, muffins. No meat. Eggs a few times a week are okay. Lunch is the BIG meal, to be completed by 2:00 P.M. - meat or fish, starch, veggies, salad, dessert. Dinner, eaten around 6 or 7 P.M., is a lighter meal, dairy for protein, some starch, veggies, salad. No meat or sweets after 2:00 P.M.

To my complete amazement, the RBTI approach cured my lifelong sleep disorder! By eating the last meal of the day by 7 P.M. and a light meal, at that, and not eating again until morning, I awake at 7:00 A.M. hungry and raring to go! Consequently, by 11 P.M., I am tired and ready to fall asleep.

This way of eating also seemed to lower my cortisol levels and improve my thyroid function. Hair grew back very thick, skin problems completely cleared up, no more edema, good energy, good mood. Digestion and elimination are the best they have been in 20 years. And best of all, I have lost over 25 lbs, eating all of my favorite foods. (I constantly felt deprived with "Peat eats".)

I continue to follow Peat's recommendations in terms of avoiding PUFAS and taking thyroid, aspirin, and progesterone and continue to read his newsletters and learn from him. But his dietary recommendations did NOT work for me.

I can just about guarantee that anything I take I will react oppositely to the majority of people. And I seem to be a "hyper responder" to most things.
sol

I found some info online about human sleep patterns. Some researchers believe that waking in the very early am hours of the night is a perfectly normal pattern. There are apparently documents from old times (middle ages? I don't remember) that people would sleep a few hours, wake, maybe get up for an hour or two then go back to bed and sleep more. there is some sepculation that broken sleep, coming to full wakefullness during the night has an evolutionary advantage, too. Somehow reading about it being normal made me relax about it. I still wake every night, make a bathroom trip, then get back to sleep (most nights). Sometimes my sleep is broken more than once, but that is much less common now.

After a lifetime of insomnia, with 25 years of extreme insomnia and 15 years of that 25 being total insomnia, I am just grateful to get any sleep at all, for me to get a total of 5,6, or more hours a night, even if broken is very good sleep for me. Used to be I could only sleep between 30 to 90 min at a stretch (with 90 min being rare) so now that I sleep in 3 to 3+ hour blocks that is fantastic (for me).

I have ZERO history of sleeping a solid night through: caused my childhood to be a battleground, because I couldn't get to sleep either (my dad apparently felt that if he yelled at me or threatened to give me away that would help me get to sleep and stay asleep? yeah, that'll work.....).

But if you used to sleep straight through that would be different and much more frustrating. Wish I had some good ideas for you.
sol

[QUOTE=Cathy B.]

Not sure if what is happening to me is similar or not. I did gain 25 lbs, but now feel that is because I added sugar and root veg carbs to the LC way of eating I was trying to follow when I started Peat-ish eating. I mean, at some point total calories do start to matter.....I slept better once I started Peatish eating. On my last strict LC I developed total insomnia again, and it was unbearable so I had to find some other way. But gaining 25 lbs was pretty devastating even with the health improvements I experienced--among which were complete remission of knee and hip pain as well as improved sleep, better mental state and energy........but now some of those benefits are regressing....esp. leg and knee pain. I've been asking for ideas in various places, and researching myself..........aspirin can apparently cause tendon weakness and impair healing of tendon injuries, so I've abandoned aspirin at least temporarily. Either too much or too little thyroid can also cause muscle problems (and maybe joint/tendon problems? I speculate). So as of this morning after spending yesterday in a lot of pain, and having to go back to using canes to walk I am stopping my T3 for now. Even though I take only a teeny dose.



I have not had those problems on my modified Peat. Luckily for me, I guess, I've never been constipated except for some weeks on heavy doses of SOMA or Flexeril.



I've been doing a modified version of RBTI, and since I started that is when my knee pain and other joint pain have surged......I was almost totally free of that kind of pain before I started messing with RBTI.......I can't stop pork because of my allergies, without pork I can't do an adequate food rotation, and start to get allergic reactions to foods I'm having to eat too often.



I am trying to find my way through all this........I'm wondering if both RBTI and Peat eating lower my cortisol too much, increasing inflammation and leading to this extreme resurgence of pain......not sure, still experimenting.
The frustrating thing for me is I can't really get back to a closer Peat way of eating..........I loved the grains so much on RBTI I'm not having much succcess stopping eating them again. In one way or other I've felt deprived on every diet I've ever gone on, whether the diet was for health and not for weight loss or not. This may be because I live with a very long list of foods I can't eat due to my allergy......I am ALWAYS deprived because of that, and the variety of foods I can safely eat is narrow. Adding grains again really improved that, but may be hurting me literally......

So my focus now is trying to learn to eat to appetite, stop before I'm stuffed. It is proving to be amazingly difficult to only restrict foods that cause an allergy reaction. I knew I had a lot of things I "shouldn't" eat from 50+ years of trying to either lose weight or just not gain weight, but I had no idea that list was so long........
sol

Some of my experiences are similar to yours.........I've been on a very long list of diets/ways of eating.......most changes "caused" some improvements but only for 2-3 months, then everything would start reversing. By that Measusre my modified Peat is the most successful WOE I've ever done, by far.........improvements lasted and even increased for about an entire year. However things, obviously, have deteriorated. If I can ever narrow it down to one or two things I've been "doing wrong" I will post about it, probably in my journal.



Since I was considered "pre-diabetic" or even frankly "diabetic" before I started Peat I am glad to report that I have great fasting BG levels now, and post meal raises are no longer big "spikes" even with the sugar and carbs. Frankly this both amazes me and pleases me, as no sugar diets are horrible. Almost as horrible as no fat diets, LOL. I'm no longer a slave to the blood sugar meter.




My ferritin was keeping in about the 40-50 range, but it is one of the things I'm considering as a cause or partial cause of recent joint pain and tendon injuries. Weak tendons, contracted leg muscles, etc, could have a connection to too much iron. I am thinking of donating again, without ferritin testing prior, because my PA will freak if I'm around or under 50 and want to donate. But I have been between 0 and 20 and felt fine, and Hemoglobin and Hematocrit were fine at that ferritin level.......so I think donating would be fine, and I'm curious to see if it will help at all.

I no longer do other labs at all as results never correlated well with symptoms so I'm going by how I feel. How I feel and how functional I am is what is important to me, so I've given up spending a ton of money on doctor visits and tests, unless I have an actual current issue I think a doctor can do something about, which isn't much as it turns out, LOL.



I think that is true of me also. I've been pursuing sleep for my entire life it seems.

In addition to trying no T3 at all, I have stopped aspirin, and am stopping niacinamide too. I plan to keep on with A + D and maybe B1 and copper (B1 and copper help my neuropathy). Or maybe I will stop those as well, without taking T3 I shouldn't need as much A, etc.? I had really slacked off taking A + D when this leg/knee stuff started (in addition to the diet changes I mentioned before) so wondered if that is part of why the joint pain and contracted muscles are back. But stopping all vitamin/min supplements seems like a good idea right now.

This is all really complicated, and I'm really tired of it all, but don't know what else to do but keep trying things. But I may in fact be on the way to stopping messing about with diet and supplements entirely.......trying to learn to eat what I want when I want and stop eating before stuffed (within my allergy limitations). It may not work healthwise, and I may gain a ton of weight, but I think I am done or very close to being done with dieting of any kind for any reason. But I believe I will always keep to reduced PUFA and keep having gelatin and at least some milk and juice. The fruit thing is difficult here, as Peat preferred fruits are basically not availabe at all, so I am eating fruits that look good when in season. Can't wait for the price of melons to go down and quality to go up as the season progresses.

Solly, how do you interpret that? Do you think some of those improvements were a "placebo effect"?



So, we can both agree that the Peat diet has improved our fasting BG levels. I think we both agree that it is the increased sugars that paradoxically has improved this. Wonder if other people here are having similar results.




Agreed. My medical plan allows a yearly physical, so I have a pretty good doctor (at least, he is open-minded) so I had him tweak the physical to include some lab tests that interested me. I LOOK GREAT on the lab reports. Since I do heavy weight-training, I am pretty muscled up and people would never suspect that I feel sub-par due to the sleep thing.




I am sorry to hear that. I am not just being polite when I say, "I feel your pain". I really do. I slept well through High School and most of College. It's hard for me to pin-point exactly when I started sleeping poorly. It must have been gradual at first and snuck up on me. It could be that diet is the wrong arena in which I should be looking to solve this problem. However, listening to Peat's broadcasts, I thought it might have been a solution. Maybe it is for some, since I guess that insomnia could have a number of etiologies.




What led you to that conclusion?

Yes, I know about that study. It's by a professor of history at VPI, named Ekirch. Here is a link to his book on nocturnal activities in pre-industrial Europe:
http://www.amazon.com/At-Days-Close...36753968&sr=8-1

I agree with that up to a point. It makes sense that it would be advantageous for at least some members of a tribe to wake up in the middle of the night...to tend to the fire, as sentinels against invaders, etc. If I woke in the middle of the night, got back to sleep after an hour or so, and then had a refreshing sleep, I would be ok with it. It's true that the 8 hour one block of sleep might be a formula to which we felt compelled to follow that might not be right for everybody. I don't care if I sleep only six hours sleep a night, but I just want to wake up feeling rested.

That is incredible. I am both happy and envious of you

So besides the timing of the meals, what about RBTI do you think brought about this marvelous turnabout?

Being a lover of dairy products made Peat right up my alley.

Except, I cultured almost everything and hadn't consumed much milk, straight up, in a very long time.

I had been plagued w cold sores and that had increased following LC so I had cut things like flax and nuts, EVCO (that caused the worst/most frequent outbreaks), but still....

I started Peat and quit yogurt, completely, but still kept some sour cream, cottage cheese and occ cream cheese and kept hard cheese but stopped the long aged variety.

The cold sores simply vanished!!

I also started using organic, refined CO which was his recommendation.
That works, too.

All last summer I ate only fruit-vegies and sweet fruit, although not exactly his choices due to availability.
This was perfect since I grow these items.

I still have pain issues and those diminished at times but remained...still have 'em.

I now eat occ yogurt, added some vegies which I enjoy, eat some starch (I actually seem to prefer whole grains so usually something along those lines).

Sugar did not do anything for me and I certainly did not have improved sleep and energy was temporary.
Potatoes are eaten occ but did not improve anything.

I continue morning eggnog which is the best thing ever!!
Use of gelatin, broths....

Paul wrote on sugar vs starch Feb 2012 (PHD) and that is probably the best description of my experience.

I never got involved in the medication aspect since I am very cautious....I take apsirin PRN but that's about it.

In my work, I see the results of increased aspirin and I think nose bleed is probably the most common but the others are not visible so who knows.....

Let's say you have an aneurysm somewhere (ie brain); if that sucker bursts, it would be a good thing to not have inhibited clotting.
Even small doses increase clotting time so the larger the dose the more one would need to know the amt of K2...

Well, you know, after all the reading and discussion.

I take most of my sugar in the form of fruit. Ray of cours recommends this. Sucrose is mainly for emergencies. I got really messed up adding so called safe carbs in the form of rice when I was following PHD. Gained about 15 pounds. I think all the spices, too, increased my appetite. Anyway, Paul is bright and writes well. The difference between Peat and most bloggers is his wide range and the complete way he explains things. He backs up his theories with a lot of references.

I can see how people could misinterpret rays views on sugar. He uses the word sugar in the scientific sense though. But I have to say that when somebody writes an article supposedly refuting Rays sugar theory and ignores the fact that by sugar, Ray means fruit sugar, I have to suspect a lack of scientific thought.

Well, this is all very encouraging, LOL...

Guess there is no magic bullet, especially when you're dealing with the hormones. I hope everyone figures out their issues. (I too have been plagued by sleep problems forever.)

After reading this whole thread, I did notice that no one was having complete success on the program. But, it was such a radical departure from everything I've tried, I thought I'd give it a go.

I've only been Peatish for a month and only what I'd call "all-in" for a couple weeks. I haven't started taking the T3 Dr. Peat recommended as it will require a trip to a bigger city. But, so far the only thing I've really noticed so far is weight gain.

To be fair, the first few weeks, I was drinking whole milk (it was all I could find where I was with no additives like marine oil) and I just gave up cheese this week. So, my fat content is down now to a tablespoon of coconut oil and 3 liters of 1.5% milk.

I also cut back to one liter of oj. due to acid, taste and too much liquid issues. I have been taking in a fair amount of sucrose (and adding honey to my milk) in it's place. I figure one liter of oj gives me plenty of fruit sugar and the vitamins and minerals you don't get from just plain sugar.

Maybe I should be eating fruit instead. I have plenty of it available to me here in Cambodia. But, there's the fiber issue. And, as much as Dr. Peat recommends fruit, whenever I hear him talk about individual fruits, he seems to not be a very big fan of many at all. He recommends tropical fruits but, not pineapple (too much tryptophan), not bananas or mangoes (allergenic), and not grapefruit (estrogen inducing).

The other fruits he recommends - grapes, cherries, and watermelon- don't work for me, for various reasons. So, that leaves oj.

I also thought I picked up in an interview I just listened to yesterday that the lactose from all that milk isn't a good sugar on it's own and you need fructose with it to balance that out too. Whew, I guess the answer is to sip on milk and oj, all day, every day.

I've also had a recurrence of upper back pain, which Dr. Peat attributes to intestinal issues and he suggested it was either the pork gelatin, coconut water, or additives in the cheese. I cut out all three and the pain has been gone every since. I have a feeling it is the gelatin. I'm going to try a lesser amount tonight and see how that goes.

I've been eating the carrot daily, but am still having some constipation issues, even now after being off the cheese for several days. Coffee usually helps, but I cut that out too, because it tends to make me urinate even more than I already do and with all this milk and oj...

So, things aren't going overly smoothly. I'm not throwing in the towel though. Hopefully, I will get some T3 soon and add that to the mix.