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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Jan-21-18, 11:44
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Posts: 2,174
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/160/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
Location: NE WA
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Quote:
There is, for starters, no evidence that ketogenic diets are conducive to, or even compatible with, human health across the lifespan, or longevity. There is, instead, bountiful evidence that the very foods such diets exclude are associated with less diabetes, cancer, heart disease, dementia, and premature death in general.


If that's true, why did I end up with diabetes? I ate bread every single day. Often at every meal. As long as I stay lc & hf, my blood sugar is normal.

My mother ate a "healthful" diet of whole grains, legumes, & low fat for years - she died of cancer. My dad ate the same way, ended up diabetic & had dementia when he died.

I'll stick to low carb.
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  #17   ^
Old Mon, Jan-22-18, 09:37
bevangel's Avatar
bevangel bevangel is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,769
 
Plan: modified adkins (sort of)
Stats: 265/176/167 Female 68.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Austin, TX
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Obviously Bonnie, you developed diabetes because you had the audacity to occasionally put a pat of butter (gasp!) on your bread. Or it was the whole eggs you sometimes ate with the bread. (I mean, admit it, you didn't always stick only scrambled egg whites! And no doubt, you occasionally stuck a hamburger and/or a slice of cheese between two slices of bread. Those are the things that are responsible for your diabetes. It could not possibly have been the grains you ate every day because we KNOW grains are good... she says with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
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  #18   ^
Old Mon, Jan-22-18, 20:27
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,389
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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One giant house of carbs coming down. Let's start with the end of Katz' "article" to put everything else in the proper perspective, shall we?
Quote:
Author disclosure statement: A recent, provocative article in JAMA called on all scholars addressing diet to disclose their own position, practice, and interests. Accordingly, I note that I am a life-long advocate of minimally processed, plant-predominant diets on the basis of relevant evidence I have reviewed directly. I practice such a diet personally. I do not have a financial interest in any specific kind of diet, but I do inevitably have a financial interest in advancing what I consider to be the truth about diet and health, since all of my professional activities are devoted to that mission.

https://www.amazon.com/dr-david-kat...%20david%20katz
I dunno bout you guys, but it looks like he's lying through his teeth here. Alright, here I go.
Quote:
The historical case for ketogenesis- denying the body its customary fuel sources so that glucose is in short supply, and instead it metabolizes fat preferentially, and generates ketone bodies as fuel- resides in starvation. Rather predictably, starvation has profound effects on all aspects of metabolism. The body effectively turns to auto-digestion to sustain itself during a protracted fast. Fat and protein stores in the body are converted to fuel, and metabolism then does run on ketone bodies.

Incorrect. He doesn't know about a famous, yet obscure, experiment known as the Bellevue all-meat trial. Several papers were written on it, all named Clinical Calorimetry (Roman numeral, then subtitle) Prolonged meat diets and a study of kidney function and ketosis. This particular paper published in 1930. Or he does know, but prefers to use a bold fallacy known as a strawman, i.e. starvation rather than actual examples of ketogenic diets like that famous-yet-obscure experiment.
Quote:
In this modern age of epidemic obesity and type 2 diabetes, starvation has acquired a patina of merit. During starvation, blood sugar falls. Blood insulin falls. Blood cholesterol falls. Blood pressure falls. Weight declines. None of these were desirable throughout most of humanity’s subsistence, but all cry out “benefit” in this era of disease-by-excess.

Ah, I see, the cause of all these diseases is excess? Therefore, whenever we see any improvement in those diseases due to some dietary intervention, it's because the excess is reduced or outright turned into a deficiency? Consider this very simple logic, for it is also the basis for his own counter-arguments against ketogenic diets. Though excess of what, he doesn't say.

For the part about these aspects being undesirable throughout most of our history, let's see. If a decline in weight is undesirable, then an increase in weight is, yes? Two guys, one is lean, the other is fat. Which one survives a predator attack? Obviously, the one who can run faster. Faster than what? Than the other guy, never mind faster than the predator. It's a famous joke, but it illustrates the profound absurdity of Katz' argument about that. Here, he uses starvation to make his point, but omits the obvious - most obvious to anthropologists perhaps - this trait about leanness being a very certain advantage versus attacking predators must have been present at all times, not just during starvation. As for the other aspects, BG, BP, insulin, cholesterol, it happens with all diets, only moreso with ketogenic diets (the A-TO-Z experiment for evidence of this). Incidentally, all diets seem to claim these same improvements, likely because all diets also claim to improve all the related diseases like diabetes type 2, obesity and heart disease. Katz' own diet book(s) is no exception, see Amazon link above.

If we haven't figured this out already, this means that if the logic is that starvation is bad because none of its effects were desirable throughout our history, and if ketogenic diets are bad because they are like starvation and produce the same effect, then any diet that makes the same claims- including Katz' own - must also be equally bad. Talk about shooting one's own proverbial foot. I am beginning to doubt Katz' ability to make sense out of the English language.
Quote:
The first attempt to mimic the “benefits” of starvation medically, and thus arguably the fist ancestor to the current fixation on ketogenesis, was very low calorie liquid diets (VLCDs).
...
What evidence is there that CR can be replaced with carbohydrate restriction; that nutrient-rich plant foods can be mostly or entirely displaced by meat – and the health or longevity benefits of CR, themselves less than entirely proven, replicated? To the best of my knowledge, in humans- absolutely none. Zero.

See the all-meat experiment again. His knowledge must not be complete, then, ya? I have a choice here. Either I choose to believe he doesn't really know, in which case he couldn't possibly talk about this topic with any degree of expertise, or I choose to believe he knows full well about this famous-yet-obscure experiment but conveniently omits this knowledge for some as-of-yet unkown reason. Let's see.
Quote:
Admittedly, the Inuit, for want of choice, have a very low-carbohydrate diet which may at times be ketogenic, but they do not experience enviable health or longevity.

Ahh, he knows about the Inuit and their all-meat diets, which for any scientist leads one to eventually read about the famous-yet-obscure all-meat experiment with several papers published back in the '30s? Well then, my choce is clear - he's lying. Ok, so at this point everything he wrote about starvation, ketogenic diets, all-meat stuff and pretty much all other known diets, is based on lies and fallacies.
Quote:
While such diets are likely to be harmful to the health of people, they are certain to be devastating to the fate of the planet.

Oh, the environmental argument, huh. Allan Savory. Nuf said about that. Well, not really. If anything, Savory's work shows us that we can produce ample food of all types, not just more meat, but also more veggies. One more bullet in Katz' foot.
Quote:
If you are reaching for your credit card accordingly, you should understand you are paying for the privilege of making a leap of faith. Time will tell about the landing.

But if you're reaching for your credit card when buying my books, you can trust me, I'm an expert. Really. I know everything about diets. Never mind the lies and fallacies and blatantly purposeful omissions of famous-yet-obscure evidence. Well, it's obscure, who reads that crap anyways?
Quote:
As for those peddling the concept of ketogenic diets so absurdly beyond the basis for it in any evidence, there are only two explanations. Either they have drunk deeply of their own low-carb Kool-Aid, and are themselves deluded; or they are selling the stuff to you, but know not to buy it, in which case they are profiteering hypocrites. The expansive market for fatuous diets provides abundant cover for both species.

Oh how I just love the word "peddling", it makes it all sound so ridiculous, ya? Here's a really good example of peddling, if there ever was any: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlhL-WQ_X2Y&app=desktop

Hey Katz (sorry, I'm alergic to calling anybody like you "dr", I break out in common sense), get your shit together, you ain't fooling anybody.

And one giant house of carbs brought down. What a show.
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  #19   ^
Old Wed, Jan-24-18, 03:10
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,383
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
And one giant house of carbs brought down. What a show.


Masterfully done. And I guess he doesn't want to talk about Weston Price, either?

I went to cover a Weston Price health retreat, and -- well, I'm a mutant. Here are all these people eating sprouted grains and lots of beans, and I guess it works for them. Better than the SAD, for certain.

But I was tooting like a steam engine and constantly hungry. I guess I'm more like the Inuit
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Jan-24-18, 05:10
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,193
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac

But if you're reaching for your credit card when buying my books, you can trust me, I'm an expert. Really. I know everything about diets. Never mind the lies and fallacies and blatantly purposeful omissions of famous-yet-obscure evidence. Well, it's obscure, who reads that crap anyways?

Oh how I just love the word "peddling", it makes it all sound so ridiculous, ya? Here's a really good example of peddling, if there ever was any: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlhL-WQ_X2Y&app=desktop

Hey Katz (sorry, I'm alergic to calling anybody like you "dr", I break out in common sense), get your shit together, you ain't fooling anybody.

And one giant house of carbs brought down. What a show.

Excellent point/ counterpoint argument. Bravo!
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  #21   ^
Old Wed, Jan-24-18, 13:17
bevangel's Avatar
bevangel bevangel is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,769
 
Plan: modified adkins (sort of)
Stats: 265/176/167 Female 68.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Austin, TX
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GRB5111 asked me to keep y'all posted on any responses I might get to my "comment" to Katz's article.

So far Katz has not deigned to reply. However my comment seems to have helped bring other low-carbers out of the closet. As of a few minutes ago, Katz's article had a total of 21 comment. The first 11 were all supportive of him. My comment was the 12th posted. I think every person commenting since my post has taken Katz to task. And, I've garnered 19 likes and two positive comments directly to my comment.

I almost feel sorry for Katz. If I wrote an "influencer piece" that resulted in that much backlash, I'd be darned embarrassed.
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Jan-25-18, 03:50
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,383
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bevangel
The first 11 were all supportive of him. My comment was the 12th posted. I think every person commenting since my post has taken Katz to task. And, I've garnered 19 likes and two positive comments directly to my comment.

I almost feel sorry for Katz. If I wrote an "influencer piece" that resulted in that much backlash, I'd be darned embarrassed.




Love it!
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Jan-25-18, 05:22
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,193
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Thanks, for the update, Bev. Glad to know that your well-framed comment inspired others of like-mind to comment as well. Nice to know others are picking up on the lack of logic and unfounded nutritional claims & attacks in his article. Hypocrisy knows no bounds.
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