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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Jul-09-17, 10:55
Monkeygod Monkeygod is offline
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Posts: 3
 
Plan: deciding
Stats: 322/316/225 Male 74 inches
BF:
Progress:
Default Calories, ketosis and common sense re higher fat intakes

I outlined my baseline scenario here in the board intro thread. I don’t have a low carb diet selected yet. I’m 3 weeks into my standard 1500-2000 cals a day diet and I’ve lost a bit, but nothing spectacular I’m dropping about 1-2 lbs a week which is SOP. The reason I’m looking at keto is that normally 2, 5, 10 or even 20 weeks or so down the track of weight loss I get hungry, tired and ... I don’t know just tired of it all despite the weight loss and it all slowly goes off the rails in a slow motion train crash. I’m looking at keto as something that might be sustainable long term.

Having dieted intermittently for over 40 years now I can just look at most foods and meals and come within 5% of the calorie content in my head if I know the ingredients, but counting carbs is tricker. The attraction of low carb (to me) is that it’s purported to be less of a daily battle to the death with your appetite and more sustainable over time. I’ve been low(ish) carbing for 4 days now and I’m probably at 50-60 carbs a days at this point. The Keotstix I bought haven’t budged off the very lowest second color bar “trace” indication.

I’m 315 lbs at this point and walk a mile a day in the evening plus three light exercise session at the gym during the week. I love meat but really more lean cuts than fatty meats and I’m really kind of leery about surviving on chicken with mayo, burgers fried in butter with cheese etc. I don’t have any known cardiac issues but it just seems to be a prescription for a heart attack and fat based foods are what I’m expected to use as intake for controlling carb hunger in the low carb paradigm.

So anyway, with that long preamble here is my question. Is going high fat really OK healthwise? This is not just low carb true believer arm waving because weight loss via ketosis works operationally? I’m morbidly obese at 315 and want to be get down to my “skinny” weight of 230-240 (don’t judge I realize for many people that’s still plenty fat but I’m built like a linebacker with tree trunk legs and 36” waist at that weight). Maybe it’s a mental block but I just don’t see surviving healthily on fried meats. I get that you can lose weight this way, but is there any empirical proof eating this fat-centric way is OK over the long term?

Last edited by Monkeygod : Sun, Jul-09-17 at 11:28.
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Jul-09-17, 11:34
madeyna's Avatar
madeyna madeyna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 936
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 168/128/130 Female 5.3
BF:
Progress: 105%
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There is a interesting article in the june issue of National Geographic that goes into the all fat is bad lie that has killed so many people. Not all fat is bad there was never any evidence that it was. Trans fat is bad
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Jul-09-17, 13:22
barb712's Avatar
barb712 barb712 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,435
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 240/188/185 Female 5'11"
BF:
Progress: 95%
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As I said to you in a previous post, you don't have to ply yourself with meat and fat until it's dripping down the corners of your mouth. Eliminating the starchy foods, sugar, flour, processed junk will work wonders for starters. You can do low carb as a vegetarian or semi-vegetarian. The key, IMHO, is not necessarily high fat or high meat but low carb. However, in the beginning, it's good to add a little extra fat to your diet because it's so satiating. It cuts your appetite, which is a bit of a shock at first to feel "full" after so many years of being constantly hungry thanks to a carb-heavy diet. Embrace it. You don't have to eat bacon, or put a stick of butter in your coffee. Blech. Avocados, olives, fatty fish and, yes, eggs (the best quality you can find from cage free, omega 3 enriched on up) are so satisfying and good for your heart! And the rest of your body! And they have protein, and fat, and other good stuff. Putting a pat of grass-fed butter or some olive oil on your vegetables or salad is also a very good thing.

Salads, soups, omelets, stews can all be low carb and low meat. There's lots of variety and a whole spectrum of nutrition there.

You can stay within low carb parameters and custom design your own plan according to what you like, what you feel comfortable with, and what you can stick with!

You can follow the Mediterranean diet in a low carb way, too. Just google "Low-carb mediterranean" or "low-carb vegetarian" and you can get good recipes there that aren't meat heavy. You can also do primal in a non-meat-heavy way.

And by the way, you can be fat adapted without having to be in ketosis.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/what...be-fat-adapted/

Enjoy your journey and best of everything.

Last edited by barb712 : Sun, Jul-09-17 at 14:08.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Jul-10-17, 07:29
bkloots's Avatar
bkloots bkloots is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 10,147
 
Plan: LC--Atkins
Stats: 195/162/150 Female 62in
BF:
Progress: 73%
Location: Kansas City, MO
Default

I concur with Barb, above. You don't have to embrace "high fat" by adding anything extra. The point is eliminating starch and sugar as a baseline. Eating real food (no processed or packaged stuff). And eating real, fresh foods to a level of satisfaction and energy that works for you.

For some, eating any fat at all (after years of calorie counting) seems like "high fat." Butter, eggs, olive oil, and a little fat around the pork chop (if you can find one now that isn't trimmed completely lean!) have been off limits, and will forever feel like forbidden luxury.

I don't actually "count carbs" anymore. I just don't eat certain things: sugar (in any form). Starch (bread, potatoes, rice, corn, etc.) Nothing in a package with a list of ingredients. Pretty simple.

Green veggies, some fruits (berries, occasional melon), Greek yogurt. I'm probably headed for colon cancer because I like my chicken, fish, and pork chops grilled outdoors. Sigh. There are no final answers.

You are approaching this mindfully, and you'll do fine.

P. S. I'm 70 and have been LC since 2003. Other diets before that. Other than hypothyroid (for which I take a generic levothyroxine) I have no health issues that I know of. I think that's mainly dumb luck.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Jul-10-17, 08:58
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,422
 
Plan: P:E=>1 (Q3-22)
Stats: 168/100/82 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 79%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeygod
...but is there any empirical proof eating this fat-centric way is OK over the long term?

It depends on who's "empirical proof" you look at I suppose.

A question to consider would be; "Has what you've done in the past lead to health and a leaner you?" Perhaps you should "try" high fat, perhaps for a year and see what happens to your markers. It works for some and not other. It seems to work for me, here's my "empirical proof" and I wish you well and hope you discover what may work for you!



Perhaps start with some curry'd Goat and Collard Greens, Goat healthy? Can't be. Too fatty. Goats are Smelly and have weird eyes and poor people eat them. Not good!



Before 9/30/2015...



During circa 6/2X/2017...



Hepatic Chart covering that interval...



Lipid Chart covering that interval...



Metabolic Chart covering that interval...



...The experiment continues. Is this health? I don't have the answer but I'll continue on this path until there is compelling evidence (both public and from my own experience) that informs me to consider modifying my habit of avoiding GPS (Grain, Potato, Sugar) and mindstate of "considering saturated fat fattening and unhealthy"

EAT MORE FAT - U WILL EAT LESS FOOD. PLANTS WILL LIKE U MORE BETTER FOR NOT EATING SO MANY OF THEM ;-)

Kidding aside, I do wish you Happiness, Peace and Wellness Monkygod and thank you for letting me share my story. I might use some of this later in another story...

Last edited by thud123 : Mon, Jul-10-17 at 09:04.
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Jul-10-17, 09:18
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Thud, you make such a great case for this way of eating.

I bet you got plenty of fat while eating high carb, monkey god. It was just buried in convenience foods. And chances are they were cheap industrial seed oils, high in polyunsaturates.

I would venture to say you will probably eat less fat on LCHF, (though it will likely be a higher percentage of calories). And if you follow a mainstream LCHF plan, you will be eating healthier fats (stable saturated fats) that occur in actual foods. Those so-called healthy polyunsaturated seed oils require harsh chemicals, bleaching and deodorizing before they are something that humans will eat.

If you are really interested in the quality and health of fats, I recommend you read Nina Teicholz's The Big Fat Surprise. You'll learn that the recommendations to eat less fat are built on - well, assumptions and fiction. It has never been proved that high fat is UNhealthy, but that myth has certainly been tossed around a lot.

Besides Thud's impressive results, I would recommend you read khrussva's journal. His results were so impressive that they were written up on diet doctor.com, and he has been a huge inspiration to so many on these boards.

Last edited by Liz53 : Mon, Jul-10-17 at 15:41.
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Jul-10-17, 10:58
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

High fat is a relative term, and as many have expressed, compared to the low fat recommendations over the past 30 years, it may seem that some are eating a LOT of fat. That's not necessarily so. Since I subscribe to the philosophy that one diet does not suit all, we all react differently because we are all unique snowflakes (kidding to a degree, but not really). The objective in refining a way of eating for yourself is to feel free to experiment to arrive at the right combination of fats, proteins, and carbs that helps you achieve health. It takes time. When I first starting including more fat in my diet by not trimming fat from meats and, instead, eating it, I realized that not only did it not negatively impact my health, but it tasted damn good as well!!! i have come to the conclusion that eating healthy fats has no impact on my CVD or CHD health based on my tests over the past few years including a few NMR Lipid Panels. For me, the belief that fats cause these diseases are simply a myth. However, there are some fats I must steer clear of including seed oils such as canola, corn, soy, and anything labeled "vegetable oil." Knowing the fats that are healthy and the fats that aren't is important. It's also difficult because there are authorities who will recommend "healthy" polyunsaturated fats, which include the fats that I just identified. Be clear that there is no "agreement" on this, and the only way to determine how you respond is simple personal experimentation or what many refer to as our N=1 experiences, which is another way of saying that the experience comes from our own experimentation with 1 subject, you!

Have fun with this as you've made some progress. Adapt some things and refine your WOE for the long term. See what works and embrace it. Ignore and eliminate what doesn't. This journey is more an art than a science since we all respond differently to dietary items. I can say with enthusiasm that it works if you work it. Stay consistent and eat the amount of any macro that produces the best results. This is a very easy way to eat and is completely sustainable for the long term.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Jul-10-17, 13:30
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,368
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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For once I don't have the link...think I read this on a Tweet!

Rough quote: "The weight loss that results with a Low Carb Ketogenic diet is due 90% to what you DO NOT EAT, only 10% to What you DO EAT".

You want to do a vegetarian version of LC? have at it...there is a sub-forum below will help you. A PSMF? Give it a try.

BUT for all versions of LC, do NOT EAT sugar, bread, pasta, grains, potatoes, soda, alcohol, beer, candy, starchy vegetables, nor high sugar fruit, and you will do fine.
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Jul-12-17, 05:22
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,422
 
Plan: P:E=>1 (Q3-22)
Stats: 168/100/82 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 79%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
...Rough quote: "The weight loss that results with a Low Carb Ketogenic diet is due 90% to what you DO NOT EAT, only 10% to What you DO EAT".

That's a clever way to look at it. For me there's two ways of looking at the "do not eat" part of this a) I avoid eating grain, potato and sugar and by doing this b) I DON'T EAT the same amount of food that I did before, and that would be calories in my estimation.

the avoidance part is conscious
the calorie part is un-conscious

at least it seems this way for me today.
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Jul-12-17, 05:57
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,283
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
That's a clever way to look at it. For me there's two ways of looking at the "do not eat" part of this a) I avoid eating grain, potato and sugar and by doing this b) I DON'T EAT the same amount of food that I did before, and that would be calories in my estimation.

the avoidance part is conscious
the calorie part is un-conscious

at least it seems this way for me today.


The way I understand things (Why We Get Fat by Taubes) by eliminating all those high carb foods you eliminate much of the excess glucose in you body so that your body does not accumulate so much fat for storage purposes. Also your body will access the already stored fat in your body for energy. This will happen whether or not your caloric intake is reduced so that weight loss will/may happen regardless of whether or not calories have been reduced. Furthermore, a reduction in caloric intake can happen naturally as a result of eliminating those carbs not simply because you are eating less but because eliminating the carbs reduces appetite so that fewer calories are consumed. In other words it is all a rather more complex process that the calories in calories out hypothesis would have one believe. What we can observe from the outside is just the tip of the shrinking iceberg.

Jean
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Jul-12-17, 07:08
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The problem with the question of whether this is safe in the long run for me is that once you get to the long run, causation is harder to establish. A year long intervention study in humans is pretty long as these things go, and already very expensive. Can I show that a long term ketogenic diet, talking decades here, is safe? I can point at individuals it doesn't seem to harm. The problem with this criticism of the ketogenic diet--we lack very long term studies--is also a problem with other diets. Do we know that 20 years of dietary fat restriction will do no harm? The studies really haven't been done. There are societies that have eaten more saturated fat than ours, other that have eaten less saturated fat, having a lower heart disease etc. burden. This doesn't mean that fat isn't a problem in certain contexts--it only suggests that it's not sufficient in and of itself to be damaging.

A high fat/high sugar diet causes noticeable moves in the wrong direction in real time, assuming that these will add up to problems in the long run seems prudent. A well-formulated ketogenic diet, when it causes improvements in the short run, it seems less prudent to assume that there will be a long run problem. When the only thing you can measure is short-term, assuming that the long term consequences will be the opposite of the short-term consequences doesn't seem to make that much sense to me. Especially where the ketogenic diet reverses or puts into remission hyperglycemia, hyperinsulinism and other aspects of insulin resistance and diabetes, I think the burden of proof is to show that it's harmful, since these are greater threats to health than even the purported dangers of saturated fat, even before beginning to doubt those dangers this is so.
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Jul-12-17, 08:54
VLC.MD VLC.MD is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 220
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 209/185/185 Male 69
BF:reducing
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeygod
I’m 315 lbs at this point


I suggest LCHF diet, as described on dietdoctor.com.

Anything else will be too hard to lose the weight.
It is true you aren't hungry on LCHF diets.
I just did it over the last 5 weeks.
I have no time, almost no cooking skills, and at this point in time haven't exercised at all.

The idea that any keto diet will harm you is speculative at best. I'll say it's quasi-illogical too. You really are missing the point in this respect: You have weight problem. You don't have fat intake problem. No one said you are eating too much fat. You said you have lose weight. Choose the plan that will get you to lose weight.

If you are worried LCHF will worsen your lipid profile ? Well, it won't and it doesnt matter. You have a weight problem, not a lipid problem.

A good HDL is important. I've told people, "money can't buy a good HDL" (aka there are no drugs to get you there). Check out this HDL ...



Boom !
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  #13   ^
Old Wed, Jul-12-17, 09:07
VLC.MD VLC.MD is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 220
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 209/185/185 Male 69
BF:reducing
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
The problem with the question of whether this is safe in the long run for me is that once you get to the long run, causation is harder to establish. A year long intervention study in humans is pretty long as these things go, and already very expensive. Can I show that a long term ketogenic diet, talking decades here, is safe? I can point at individuals it doesn't seem to harm. The problem with this criticism of the ketogenic diet--we lack very long term studies--is also a problem with other diets. Do we know that 20 years of dietary fat restriction will do no harm? The studies really haven't been done. There are societies that have eaten more saturated fat than ours, other that have eaten less saturated fat, having a lower heart disease etc. burden. This doesn't mean that fat isn't a problem in certain contexts--it only suggests that it's not sufficient in and of itself to be damaging.

A high fat/high sugar diet causes noticeable moves in the wrong direction in real time, assuming that these will add up to problems in the long run seems prudent. A well-formulated ketogenic diet, when it causes improvements in the short run, it seems less prudent to assume that there will be a long run problem. When the only thing you can measure is short-term, assuming that the long term consequences will be the opposite of the short-term consequences doesn't seem to make that much sense to me. Especially where the ketogenic diet reverses or puts into remission hyperglycemia, hyperinsulinism and other aspects of insulin resistance and diabetes, I think the burden of proof is to show that it's harmful, since these are greater threats to health than even the purported dangers of saturated fat, even before beginning to doubt those dangers this is so.


Bang on.
I like your line of thinking.

The potential risks of Ketogenic diets are so vs. remaining obese they aren't even worth talking about.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 06:58
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1208952/

Quote:
The case for not restricting saturated fat on a low carbohydrate diet


By Jeff Volek and Cassandra Forsythe, worth a read. This one citation;


http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/APJ...l%207//S401.pdf

Drew my eye, warning, it received funding from Dairy and Palm oil special interests. I do think this study was likely designed to illustrate a point, rather than to ask a question--but that doesn't mean that I think the point lacks merit.

Quote:
Cholesterolaemic effect of palmitic acid in relation to other
dietary fatty acids


The finding here was that as omega 6 linoleic acid increased above 4.5 percent of the diet, the effect of palmitic acid on increasing ldl cholesterol decreased, at ten percent linoleic acid the effect of palmitic acid was gone. Okay, it doesn't quite show that--they don't look at the effect of linoleic acid on cholesterol if palmitic acid had been low to begin with. It does illustrate that "saturated fat increases ldl" is an oversimplification, though. Before getting into whether increased ldl cholesterol is a problem in the first place.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 16:45
locarb4avr locarb4avr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 261
 
Plan: My own plan
Stats: 220/126/132 Male 65in
BF:
Progress: 107%
Location: 92646
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IMHO, google BMI, your bmi is 40.6.
BMI >= 30 will lose weight, if you limit your carb consumption.
When you limit your carb intake, your body can start regulate self and let you know whether you are hungry or not(eat or not.)

Do not FORCE eat. The rest is to get rid of BAD habits brain washed by people who know little of Foods and Nutritions Science.(ie. the heart association's warning.)

When your BMI get below 30, it is kind of tricky to lose weight. There is not much margin errors left.

The closer one get to 25 and below, one must use sleep & hungry method to lose weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeygod
I outlined my baseline scenario here in the board intro thread. I don’t have a low carb diet selected yet. I’m 3 weeks into my standard 1500-2000 cals a day diet and I’ve lost a bit, but nothing spectacular I’m dropping about 1-2 lbs a week which is SOP. The reason I’m looking at keto is that normally 2, 5, 10 or even 20 weeks or so down the track of weight loss I get hungry, tired and ... I don’t know just tired of it all despite the weight loss and it all slowly goes off the rails in a slow motion train crash. I’m looking at keto as something that might be sustainable long term.

Having dieted intermittently for over 40 years now I can just look at most foods and meals and come within 5% of the calorie content in my head if I know the ingredients, but counting carbs is tricker. The attraction of low carb (to me) is that it’s purported to be less of a daily battle to the death with your appetite and more sustainable over time. I’ve been low(ish) carbing for 4 days now and I’m probably at 50-60 carbs a days at this point. The Keotstix I bought haven’t budged off the very lowest second color bar “trace” indication.

I’m 315 lbs at this point and walk a mile a day in the evening plus three light exercise session at the gym during the week. I love meat but really more lean cuts than fatty meats and I’m really kind of leery about surviving on chicken with mayo, burgers fried in butter with cheese etc. I don’t have any known cardiac issues but it just seems to be a prescription for a heart attack and fat based foods are what I’m expected to use as intake for controlling carb hunger in the low carb paradigm.

So anyway, with that long preamble here is my question. Is going high fat really OK healthwise? This is not just low carb true believer arm waving because weight loss via ketosis works operationally? I’m morbidly obese at 315 and want to be get down to my “skinny” weight of 230-240 (don’t judge I realize for many people that’s still plenty fat but I’m built like a linebacker with tree trunk legs and 36” waist at that weight). Maybe it’s a mental block but I just don’t see surviving healthily on fried meats. I get that you can lose weight this way, but is there any empirical proof eating this fat-centric way is OK over the long term?
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