I started LC back in January and while for the first time ever I felt like I had a grip on keeping my BG readings pretty steady throughout the day, my morning FBG was still in the 120-130 range and then would spike to about 170 due to the DP effect. BTW, I have Type 2.

I have been taking 1,000 mg Metformin morning and night along with 2.5 mg of Glipizide in the morning and 5 mg at night since I started LC. The only thing that changed for me was lowering my morning glipizide from 5 mg to 2.5 mg due to eating LC.

As far as supplements, I had been taking daily:

multi-vitamin
Fish Oil
Flaxseed Oil

After much reading on this forum and online, I decided to start taking Vitamin D3 and Magnesium supplements too. I had read that a deficiency in either one of these could possibly contribute to Diabetes but that's not why I started taking them. I started taking them to help with my overall wellbeing.

I actually started taking the Calcium/Magnesium supplement a few weeks before I started taking vitamin D3 only because I read about Magnesium first and then D3.

About 2 weeks ago I added in D3 at a rate of 5,000 IU in the morning and evening.

For the past 3 mornings, my FBG has been between 102 to 106! I haven't changed anything else in terms of my supplements, meds or diet. That's a drop of 14 - 28 points 3 days in a row. My highest BG due to the DP effect has been 140 compared to 170!

The only thing I can attribute the change to is the addition of D3 or a combo of taking the D3 and the magnesium.

Has anyone else experienced a change like this after adding supplements of either D3 or Magnesium? Or some other supplement??

My FBG numbers have NEVER been this low so while I'm thrilled to see them drop I'm not sure what exactly caused it other than the supplements.

Be sure to take a good sublingual B12 daily too. Metformin can deplete B12 levels and cause really nasty side-effects. I recommend B12 methylcobalamin sublingual. Let it dissolve slowly (don't chew). I usually take mine at bed time. Any unneeded B12 is excreted so it won't hurt to take even as much as 5000mcg.

B12 deficiency and metformin

Grats on getting the BG lower! I'm not sure which supplement to attribute it to, but it's good!

Hi patina,

That is great news about your FBG!!!

I know for sure that magnesium is involved in glucose metabolism. I have just found this in "The Magnesium Miracle" by Dr Carolyn Dean:

http://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Mir...99058375&sr=1-1



As vitamin D3 increases the uptake of magnesium, it could be involved in improving FBG numbers that way. I have just read (in a German book on Vitamin D3) that it increases insulin sensitivity, so that would be another explanation.

At any rate, I am sure you feel very motivated to carry on taking these supplements now!

You write above:



10K a day is actually quite a lot, unless you know for sure that your levels were already very low. I would get them tested in about six months and certainly ramp down the intake when you can get in the summer sun. I don't know what latitude you're at, so I can't say when you'll be getting D3 from the sun in your area.

Usually about 5K per day is enough for most people. After reading a few articles, I now no longer take 5K daily in winter, but just every other day. I got this advice from Stephan Guyenet (Whole Health Blog) and, I think, Chris Kresser or Chris Masterjohn says the same. I know of a few people (Hyperlipid, for one, plus someone on this forum) who got their levels up too high on 10K a day. The Jaminets ("The Perfect Health Diet") also advise taking vitamin K2 (I think, must check!!!) with vitamin D3 as they argue this will stop it from becoming from toxic. As you can see, this is a complex field!!!
You can get K2 in LC foods, so, personally, I haven't used this supplement (yet!!!), but I am going to look into it.

In your shoes, I would stop taking the D3 in the evenings and just take the 5K in the mornings, but, that's just my opinion.

You also wrote this:



I wholeheartedly agree with Nancy on this one and can personally recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Could-Be-B12-...pd_bxgy_b_img_b

I successfully managed to treat my B12 deficiency with this:

http://www.iherb.com/Source-Natural...blets/1466?at=0

All the classic anaemia symptoms which I had are GONE!!! The only remaining symptom is occasional numb patches on my back. However, I am hoping that this will also go soon - the numb patches are no longer as big as they were and the feeling of numbness doesn't last so long any more either.

I started taking this on October 22nd 2010 and feel like a new woman!!! I initially took 2mg per day, 1mg in the a.m. and 1mg in the early p.m. I find that it gives me an energy boost, so I never take it at night like NancyLC, but, that's just a personal experience. Everyone has to see what works best for them. However, it does say on the iherb.com website page that it is involved in the sleep-wake cycle, so I suppose it may make sense to take it at night. I now only take 1mg per day.

As I read (in the book mentioned above) that taking B12 can initially cause your body to make a larger amount of red blood cells, for which it requires extra potassium, I also got myself some potassium. Apparently, very low potassium can be very dangerous, so I got that at huge expense from a rip-off German online supplement retailer. I have this on order from iherb.com:

http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-P...sules/2000?at=0

In your shoes, I would DEMAND a blood test of your B12 levels and insist on having it prescribed, if you can. If that is not possible, then both the potassium and B12 are pretty cheap and won't make such a big hole in your pocket, I hope!!!

Using this code ~~~~~~ will at least get you a $5 discount on your first order, so that might help!!!

If you do find out that your B12 levels are low (my level was 477 - I forget the units used - which was - ha ha ha - within the "normal range"), which means under 500-600, not whatever the "normal lab reference range" is, then you might even want to consider the 5mg tablets initially. But I really would then insist on getting my potassium levels checked by a doctor, too, (at least that is what is advised in this book). A "good" B12 level is around 1,000-1,200, so I hear.

I'm going to have blood work done again when I reach my 6-month gluten-free mark as I am curious to see whether my iron levels have gone up!!! I shall also then report back on my B12 levels, OK?

OK, that's more than two cents and I need to eat something!!!

Take care,

amanda

Please don't panic about taking vitamin D3 at 10,000iu/d
Dr Davis reports his findings with his US patients here and it's generally around 3 yrs that there can be a rise in 25(OH)D above 100ng/ml and bear in mind it only above 200ng/ml that anyone's every reported toxicity (and they are the idiots who don't have Vit K, Vit a, and magnesium in their diets.)

I don't get this "Demanding B12 testing" why is it such a big issue to take a little Methylcobalamin B12 spray/sublingual a few times each week?
It's going to be a lot cheaper just taking a few B12's Methylcobalamin than having a test.
Has anyone ever had a toxic reaction to B12 Methylcobalamin?
Has anyone ever died from excess B12 Methylcobalamin?
I don't think so. So what's the big deal with getting tested and only taking B12 if you are proven deficient?
I don't get it. I'd rather, knowing Metformin depletes B12 suggest that everyone taking metformin ALWAYS takes a B12 spray/sublingual Methylcobalamin
That way they know they are getting the ACTIVE most readily absorbed/used form of B12 daily.
The reason I'm happy to pay my insurance bills is NOT because I ever want to claim on those insurance policies but I do want to know the insurance is available if required.
None of us can be certain we have the intrinsic factor that enables us to convert the Cyanocobalamin form of B12 into the active Methylcobalamin form . so why take the inactive form? I just don't understand why it's the usual form. In the same way I can't really understand the mentality of requiring a test before using a : $11.46 B12 Methylcobalamin spray. every other day would be fine if you're hard up.

For those who haven't used IHERB before my code for a $5 discount is ~~~~~~. I think Amanda also has a code You'll have to PM her BUT I'm sure she'll oblige.

Last year (I believe in June) I actually did ask to be tested for B12 because I had heard long term Metformin use can deplete it. Fortunately my levels were fine. I do take a "high-end" multi every day which has 200 mcg a day.

As for my 10,000 IU of D3 a day, I had read that since almost everyone is deficient, that 10,000 a day is not an unreasonable amount to start with. When it gets sunnier and I am outdoors more, I will cut back to 5,000 a day.

Thank you all for your thoughtful and informative input into this. I just was shocked that something I'm doing is actually helping with my FBG numbers!

Amanda - thanks for all the info, I still have to go through the links you provided!

I was also going to add that when I did ask my Doctor about getting my B12 level tested...she asked why I was asking. I told her about B12 levels and Metformin and she told me she had never heard of that!! I suggested she read up on it...

No surprise my doctor has never talked about D3 or Magnesium either!

Hutchinson - I think I'll stick with the D3 10,000 for a couple more months. Thanks for your input and reassurance that I'm not OD'ing on D3

While it would be great to think or know for certain you're able to convert the type of B12 usually provided in multi's I'm not 100% confident with the current tests generally used.
Get the Right Laboratory Test for Vitamin B12 Deficiency

and still think the use of Vitamin B12 - Methylcobalamin spray or sublingual even weekly may not be a total waste of money.

I follow Dr. Davis's plan.

Just to give you a few examples on D3.

My wife takes 8000iu's daily and her 25(OH)D level is around 60ng/ml now. She has been taking this dose for over a year. She started at 10,000 and her levels came in at 97ng/ml so we backed off the dose from 10,000 to 8000iu's daily.

We live in the Northeast on Long Island and we are both in our late 60s. As you get older you lose the ability to generate D3 from the sun as well.

I take 10,000 iu's daily and maintain a level of 67ng/ml.

Both my wife and I are heavy. I am 260 and 6 foot tall and my wife is 5' 7" and around 210.

The level required of D3 is influenced by weight among other things. A thin person will need less as compared to a heavy person.

I also take 1200mg of magnesium daily.

What I did learn today and I had thought about was the B12. I missed that one completely. I take Metformin ER 1000mg in the AM and 1000mg in the PM.

My A1C is at 5.4-5.6 over the past three years.

So I think I will follow Hutchinson's advice and get the spray Methylcobalamin B12.

Never to old to learn.

Thanks,

Ralph

Now that was an interesting article... and I honestly don't know what test my Doc used to test my B12 level but given her lack of knowledge on a lot of different diabetic topics, I'm sure it wasn't the Methylmalonic Acid test described in the article as the most accurate.

Now you've got me wondering if I really am deficient! I'll have to do some more research on B12.

Okay, this part of your post caught my attention. I actually do have a numb spot on my back but I've always thought it was due to pinched nerves in my shoulder! Are you saying a B12 deficiency can cause numb spots??

Hi Ralph, thanks for the input. I live in the NW where it's cloudy and rainy a lot plus with work and other things I do not get the opportunity to get outside nearly as much as I would like to so that's what I based my 10,000 IU a day to start on.

I'm wondering about the amount of magnesium you take per day. I'm currently taking a magnesium supplement that has 375mg (elemental magnesium) per day and a vitamin that has 600 mg (oxide & Glycinate) per day.

How did you arrive at the figure of 1200 mg per day for the maganesium?

I use
KRISPIN's Formula to Calculate Magnesium Daily Requirement-
only about 4% of magnesium oxide is absorbed that is why it's good as a laxative the magnesium oxide remains in the digestive tract, absorbs water and softens stools. You get a high absorption but still good laxative value from magnesium citrate so it can be used for both. But the best forms (albion patent mineral chelates) don't have a laxative effect because more of the magnesium is absorbed therefore there is less left to attract water and soften stools.

If dancinbr isn't having problems with runny stools then he's probably not taking too much though it's more than I take but I'm not a diagnosed diabetic and he is and that probably accounts for the extra magnesium requirement.

98% of your magnesium stores should be locked in your skeleton, when you are becoming diabetic your body will raid those stores for a long time so until you become diabetic you probably (because plasma magnesium tests only measure the 2% circulating not the 98% that should be stored in bones, ) manage, but once those stores are depleted it will take as long to replete them and you will need more magnesium daily than your typical daily needs.

If you're poor and have huge debts you need to earn MORE money daily than the bank charges and essentials shopping bills, to get rid of the debt and have spare money in bank requires considerably more income than a person with no debt.

Same with magnesium accounting.
The turnover in bone cells is probably over a 10yr time frame so to rebuild bones with the optimum amount of magnesium will require a diabetic to be in magnesium surplus (that means more magnesium daily than essential for daily needs but not too much to cause the runs) for at least 10yrs.

Oral magnesium supplementation reduces insulin resistance in non-diabetic subjects – a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trial

These guys were on 365 mg magnesium perhaps if they'd read Krispin that would have used an amount that was more likely to restore lost magnesium reserves. Around the 1900's the average US adult consumed around 500mg magnesium daily, It's dropped now to around 150mg/d (modern wheats have less same with modern veg)
Current RDA =420mg/d men 320/mg/d/women
So the extra 365 would bring them over the RDA but still would not meet KRISPIN's RDA = 500-700 mg magnesium daily.
The point is that by the time someone is overweight, insulin resistant but not yet totally depleted of magnesium you may assume that person is on the threshold of being magnesium deficient and diagnosed diabetic. We shouldn't be satisfied with just a holding operation, we should be aiming to restore that persons magnesium reserves and that requires MORE than simply just about meeting the basic daily needs.

10 yrs to replenish bones with optimum amount of magnesium??? Geesh! Okay, that's depressing!!

I bookmarked that page..lots of good info there.

I'm going to have to go with the reason my FBG numbers are down is due to the Mg and D3 because that's the only thing I've changed recently. This morning my FBG was 113 but that is STILL lower than it was on average before I started Mg and D3.

I am hoping that as I stick with it and I can hopefully begin to rebuild my Mg levels, I'll continue to see improvement with my FBG in the downward direction.

Thanks for all the info Hutch

You didn't see any significant improvement simply from the calcium/magnesium? I'm very interested in the D3. I'll be watching your replies.