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  #76   ^
Old Mon, Jul-18-11, 01:46
amandawald amandawald is offline
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Posts: 4,735
 
Plan: GF mod carb/Schwarzbein
Stats: 160/160/160 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Germany
Default magnesium, vitamin D3 and oestrogen dominance

Hi JLx,

You wrote this above:

Quote:
I've been supplementing with magnesium for years but was nevertheless recently diagnosed with diabetes.[sigh]


I am sorry to hear about this - no doubt you were hoping that your Mg intake was going to help you steer clear of that particular problem... At any rate, this link might cheer you up, or at least put the diabetes thing into perspective:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml

Quote:
I've experimented with quite a few forms of magnesium, which I started taking primarily for depression after I discovered this website http://george-eby-research.com/html...on-anxiety.html. I like to give him credit as I feel he may have saved my life.


George Eby has a lot of good stuff on his site, I agree!!! And I'm very glad he saved your life, too!!!

Quote:
I've tried various forms of mg through the years; favorites are mg taurate, mg glycinate/lysinate, mg malate and mg orotate.


You sound like me: I went through umpteen different forms of magnesium before I found one which worked for me. I now use Mg chloride (because you can take that before meals) and Mg glycinate. The Mg malate I tried didn't seem to work for me; the Mg taurate tablets were ENORMOUS and barely swallowable; Mg orotate I've never tried. What I have noticed, though, is that the Mg glycinate tablets with the "Albion" patent (such as those made by Dr's Best) do seem to work better than ones simply called Mg glycinate. A couple of months ago I deliberately let myself run out of Mg to see what happened (I felt crap is what happened) and then, because the German customs were hanging on to my shipment, I ordered some Mg glycinate from the UK (not Dr's Best). It really doesn't seem to work half so well as this kind:

http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-...lets/16567?at=0

Quote:
In my experimenting I've found that if I'm not eating dairy, which I didn't do for a while, it is indeed possible to take too much magnesium, even at modest doses of 300-600 mg. Food cramps and general weirdness were my clues, relieved by some calcium. Maybe it's just me. I feel like I'm always working out that calcium/magnesium ratio. My understanding is that magnesium and calcium are antagonistic and synergistic so that too much or too little may render the other ineffective. Before I was supplementing with mg, my theory is that I was getting way too much calcium and probably utilizing very little of the mg in my diet. Calcium can be an excitotoxin to the brain which is what I believe was happening when I was so depressed I could barely function. If I had listened to my psychiatrist, btw, I wouldn't have tried magnesium as he said it would be useless.


I know of another poster here who has trouble getting the Mg/Ca balance right - but she eats no dairy due to intolerances. Have you ever considered whether you have some kind of intolerance, too? What you call "food cramps" does sound as if there might be some problem in that direction.

Funny what you say about the psychiatrist... Listening to doctors and ignoring one's own gut feelings or the knowledge you have gathered yourself is probably the most harmful thing you can do to yourself!!! Thank goodness you trusted yourself and took the magnesium!!!

Quote:
Anyway, thinking myself a pretty practised experimenter, probably averaging about 500 mg a day, but much more some years and a bit less at times, I was really thrown for a loop last year when suddenly magnesium seemed to be acting differently in my body. I was taking the recommended dose of Vit D for my weight, I thought, and assuming I was probably low to begin with (too poor/cheap to order a self test) which was anywhere from 5,000 IU to 10,000 IU/day. No danger of toxicity, right?


Hmmm... As you have found out yourself, it does seem that 10K per day is too high. I know of two other people who took 10K per day and ended up with levels around 100-120 or so (I forget the units, so forgive me for this inaccuracy). When I first started taking D3, I took around 5K a day, had my numbers done about six months later and they were at around 60 (which some say is ideal, others say is a tad too high). At the moment I am not taking hardly any as it is summer, and have also become a little cautious since reading articles by Chris Masterjohn, Stephan Guyenet and Chris Kresser. If I remember rightly, they all recommend supplementing with vitamin D3, but think that levels of 60 (I'll find out what those units are in a mo!!!) are too high. Instead they recommend that it is good enough to have levels of around 30-50. I have decided to err on the side of caution and shall continue to supplement sporadically throughout the summer, and go for a dose of 5K every other day in the winter.

Quote:
But I began having heart palpitations daily, bad enough to keep me awake at night. And my usual magnesium doses were making them worse, and giving me leg cramps besides. It was really messing with my head because I feel I need magnesium to stay sane. I still took 125 to 250 mg a day of mg taurate, my absolute minimum, but had to cut back on any additional. Subsequently I realized, after I quit taking so much Vit D that they went away. Vit D promotes calcium absorption I've learned so that's probably the connection but I still don't get what was going on there.


I'm glad that you soon realized what the problem was: " after I quit taking so much Vit D that they went away".

You also write: "Vit D promotes calcium absorption I've learned so that's probably the connection but I still don't get what was going on there". But, as far as I know, vitamin D3 also enhances uptake of magnesium from the stoamch, which is why many people end up with symptoms of magnesium deficiency when they start supplementing with D3, so, like you say, I don't know what was going on with you either!!!

Quote:
Right now I'm taking 600 mg of magnesium glycinate/lysinate and think I may experiment with a (bit? - italics added by amandawald) more after reading this thread. I'm getting 1,000 IU of Vit D in my daily multiple and take another 2,500 IU about once a week. I'm afraid to take more because of the heart palpitations and another issue as well.


Like you, I have also had interesting (i.e. sometimes not good at all) experiences with this supplementation lark and it is not easy to get things right. As I say, I have decided to not go above 2.5K per day. I think you could try upping your intake a little and, at the same time, obviously, carefully monitor those heart palpitations.

I don't know what other health issues you might have, but, as far as I know, thyroid problems can cause palpitations. Have you looked into that possibility?

I got very bad arrhythmias after "over-dosing" on zinc sulphate, for example. This caused me to get low in copper. I happened to read about copper in connection with heart issues on the Stephan Guyenet blog:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.c...ar-disease.html

As the arrhythmias were really really annoying, I got some copper supplements toute de suite and they went from extremely frequent down to sporadic (but the dang things haven't gone completely, which is what I am hoping for one fine day!!!). Anyway, maybe you could look into the whole copper/zinc balance thing... I was taking 15mg of zinc (I ran out lately) on one day and 2mg of copper on the next (when I remember). However, I have now read that zinc can inhibit iron uptake (GRRR) and wonder if that is why I had low ferritin levels at my last blood test... So I'm holding on the Zn/Cu thing for the minute till I see the results of a blood test I'm having this Friday.

Quote:
I found out my blood sugar was high when I went to the doc for post menopausal bleeding. I have a mass in my uterus and see the oncologist next week. Vit D has always felt to me like it definitely increases some sex related hormone, most likely estrogen I'm assuming, as I can feel a direct hit to my libido when I take it (intermittently, not continually!).


If I remember the science, it goes something like this: to make cholesterol, you need vitamin D3 and cholesterol is a precursor to the sex/steroid hormones (or something like that), so it would make sense that D3 would have an effect on the hormones.

I have started reading about hormones (in particular, oestrogen and progesterone) lately, due to my age (47) and my suspicion that I need to get mine balanced out a little. From what I have read, it is testosterone, not oestrogen, which boosts the libido, but D3 could affect that, too. I have read about couples successfully conceiving after taking D3 so it presumably has an effect on all the sex hormones, not on one particular one.

Quote:
Anybody else ever notice this? I have additional bleeding when I take more Vit D and in fact, the initial onset of this symptom, worse back then, was when I was taking all that Vit D. (Both uterine cancer and polyps are affected by estrogen I now know.)


You write that you have "post-menopausal bleeding", which sounds kind of scary, so I guess you are around 50 or so. In that case, you may also be in this "oestrogen-dominant" group (as I suspect I now may be) and might want to look into getting someone to check out your hormones and read up about taking some progesterone to balance them out. However, this is a tricky field, so you would want to find a qualified practitioner first before you launch into any self-conducted experiments.

Or could it be that you have merely started menstruating again for whatever reason? I have a friend around my age who says that she didn't have a period for THREE YEARS and then they started again!!!

Quote:
I'm curious what other experiences people may have had with the calcium/magnesium ratio being impacted by Vit D as well as any other hormonal observations.


On your query above: as I say, I have never noticed any particular difference with the calcium thing, although that may be because I have never monitored it. Also, I have never taken calcium supplements (they are dangerous, it seems, for women in particular!!!).

However, it seems that oestrogen dominance (which women in perimenopause and thereafter often have) can promote magnesium deficiency via boosting adrenal stress hormones, which then causes a lot of magnesium to be used up. I have been trying to get my magnesium levels up for YEARS now and have always found it a struggle, despite doing everything I can to increase them. I now wonder if having oestrogen dominance has been the one factor that has been preventing me from getting my levels up that I wasn't aware of.

I am about to get a blood test done, which will hopefully give me a clue about what might be going on. If my GP is not helpful (which I suspect he won't be as he only pays attention to numbers and lab ranges, not to the symptoms I describe or any numbers which contradict what he wants to believe), I am going to go to a specialist in hormone analysis and see if I can get some answers there.

Anyway, I don't know how you are fixed insurance-wise, but if you can get your hormone levels tested, as well as maybe your thyroid, that might give you some more information. I would also look at the papers on the Ray Peat site about progesterone:

http://raypeat.com/articles/

There's also all the various John R. Lee books and the Virginia Hopkins site. I had been hoping to avoid taking hormones, but I am now coming to the conclusion that I hardly have any option. I never ever sleep through any more and I think the poor sleep is stressing me out even more. If I can get some progesterone and start sleeping better, this might help my poor old exhausted adrenals and allow me to actually hang on to some of that magnesium and not use it all up!!!

I hope this reply isn't total overload, but your post really "spoke" to me. I have just read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Estrogen-Erro...10974116&sr=8-1

which was expensive, but one of the most recent books on the subject and a very thought-provoking read. Get it from your library!!! I live in Germany so I have to buy these things new for the most part (although I do occasionally get second-hand bargains here).

I wish you all the best and hope that your visit to the oncologist won't be too scary. According to the book above, American doctors are very quick to perform surgeries (especially on women and their sex organs and breasts), some of which are not necessary and in many cases perform more aggressive surgeries than their counterparts in Europe would do. So, before you agree to any kind of aggressive treatment - should that turn out to be what is advised - get lots and lots of information!!!

I hope you find some of the links I have posted helpful - happy reading!!!

amanda
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  #77   ^
Old Mon, Jul-18-11, 19:23
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,893
 
Plan: Winging it
Stats: 236/236/207 Female 66
BF:High wt, 276, 255
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Hi Amanda,

Thanks for the reply. I'm feeling so spacey today, I hope I can make sense.

Wasn't sure what to make of the Ray Peat article. Most of it went over my head. The human body is amazingly complex isn't it? I read a book on cortisol some years back that persuaded me to go to bed earlier. Forgot the details, but the gist was that sleep we get earlier in the night, like before midnight, is more helpful in reducing cortisol than later in the night. Stress is a big part of my past overeating carbs behavior. I have to come up with another alternative now.

Quote:
You sound like me: I went through umpteen different forms of magnesium before I found one which worked for me. I now use Mg chloride (because you can take that before meals) and Mg glycinate. The Mg malate I tried didn't seem to work for me; the Mg taurate tablets were ENORMOUS and barely swallowable; Mg orotate I've never tried. What I have noticed, though, is that the Mg glycinate tablets with the "Albion" patent (such as those made by Dr's Best) do seem to work better than ones simply called Mg glycinate.



Mg chloride is one I haven't tried. Supposed to be the most absorbable I believe, but when I went looking for it in the past I mostly found links for road salt! I get mg taurate from Vitamin Shoppe usually but Amazon has it too: http://www.amazon.com/Cardiovascula...11034856&sr=8-1 It's a normal sized capsule. I started taking that when George Eby recommended it over mg glycinate, but now I take Doctor's Best mg glycinate too. I agree it seems to be good stuff. Mg orotate is somewhat hard to find. I get it from Beyond A Century in bulk and put it into capsules myself.

Quote:
Have you ever considered whether you have some kind of intolerance, too? What you call "food cramps" does sound as if there might be some problem in that direction.


Ack! Typo. I meant "foot cramps". That's usually my first clue that something's out of whack with calcium or magnesium.

Quote:
Also, I have never taken calcium supplements (they are dangerous, it seems, for women in particular!!!).


I fell for the party line back in the day and had a calcium kidney stone to show for it. I quit calcium supplements, which I was rather hit or miss with actually, and realized later that I felt somewhat better mentally. Those were the dark years and I didn't research it. Not sure I would have found anything anyway. I stumbled across George Eby's site as a link following a British psychiatry journal, where the doctor commented it was an "interesting site".

It's unfortunate that so many women don't realize the dangers of calcium and need for magnesium.

Quote:
But, as far as I know, vitamin D3 also enhances uptake of magnesium from the stoamch, which is why many people end up with symptoms of magnesium deficiency when they start supplementing with D3, so, like you say, I don't know what was going on with you either!!!


If I hadn't felt so experienced with magnesium/calcium I wouldn't have felt so nonplussed to be stumped. I think I will up my Vit D a bit though. I've been erring on the side of caution. I usually walk my dog in the early morning when it's cool and don't get much sun later unless I mow the lawn or something.

Quote:
I don't know what other health issues you might have, but, as far as I know, thyroid problems can cause palpitations. Have you looked into that possibility?

I got very bad arrhythmias after "over-dosing" on zinc sulphate, for example. This caused me to get low in copper. I happened to read about copper in connection with heart issues on the Stephan Guyenet blog:



In the lab work I had recently, I was told my thyroid tests were normal, but when I saw the endo he thought my thyroid was a little enlarged. (My doc checked it too and didn't say anything.) He said he would order a different test "next time." I had some issues with my thyroid some years back: low body temp, cold, fatigue, losing hair. My lab tests were normal, but I think that was just before they adjusted those standards that so many people were complaining about. Anyway, it was after that that I started supplementing with magnesium which, along with some thyroid formulas I took for a short time, did the trick. Mg also cleared up the dry skin I was buying buckets of bath oil for. Overnight!

I never considered copper/zinc re my heart palpitations. Thanks for the link. I'll read it when I'm feeling better. My blood sugar has been dropping steadily which Dr. Bernstein's book said may result in feelings of hypoglycemia if your body was used to high sugars. That's how I'm feeling.

Quote:
You write that you have "post-menopausal bleeding", which sounds kind of scary


I'm 56 and was several years without a period. At first I hoped that's all it was when I started bleeding because it had happened before after a couple years when I thought periods were behind me, but it has persisted usually very lightly for months. (I had to negotiate health insurance with my boss and then there was a waiting period.) My Pap smear and most labs (except for cholesterol, no surprise there) were normal apparently, so I'm hoping for the best. From what I've read, I will probably only need a hysterectomy if it's cancer.

Quote:
However, it seems that oestrogen dominance (which women in perimenopause and thereafter often have) can promote magnesium deficiency via boosting adrenal stress hormones, which then causes a lot of magnesium to be used up. I have been trying to get my magnesium levels up for YEARS now and have always found it a struggle, despite doing everything I can to increase them. I now wonder if having oestrogen dominance has been the one factor that has been preventing me from getting my levels up that I wasn't aware of.



I know I felt pretty awful during the perimenopause years, which seemed to go on way too long. Actual menopause brought much relief in so far as feeling, well, smoothed out, instead of all those jags and ridges.

I tried Ray Peat's progesterone back then, also tried some pregnenolone without relief. The progesterone was tantalizing in that for ONE day I felt amazing, energetic like I hadn't felt in years. I thought I had a whole new lease on life. Then the very next day I crashed. Really crashed. I susequently got a book by Elizabeth Vliet from the library, and recall her saying, "when do you feel worse during your cycle? When progesterone is peaking." It was all too confusing. I got frustrated and gave up. I read an article where it sounded like Suzanne Sommers calls her doctor constantly to adjust her bio-identical hormones. That would be the way to go. My own doctor, when I asked her about testing hormones, said she thought it wasn't worthwhile because they were fluctuating all the time. Exactly the problem. I hope you find a doctor to work with you!
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  #78   ^
Old Tue, Jul-19-11, 00:22
amandawald amandawald is offline
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Posts: 4,735
 
Plan: GF mod carb/Schwarzbein
Stats: 160/160/160 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Germany
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
Hi Amanda,

Thanks for the reply. I'm feeling so spacey today, I hope I can make sense.


Hi again,

Just a drive-by posting as I have other stuff to do today.

On the bolded bit above:

1) Have you ever tried having salt water to combat that? It sometimes works a treat for me.

2) Or simply having some carbs with a bit of fat and protein along with them?

I hope you find out what's going on soon.

amanda
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