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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Sep-05-18, 16:56
SabreCat50 SabreCat50 is offline
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Plan: modified Atkins
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Location: Oakland, Florida, USA
Default New Gary Taubes article

From the MIT Technology Review...

Researchers find a way to mimic clinical trials using genetics

A new way to determine if associations in epidemiological studies are causal or not -- using genetics.

Quote:
Today, Mendelian randomization may have settled some of the thorniest issues of cause and effect facing heart doctors—including not just HDL (not causal) and homocysteine (not causal) but also the LDL particles that carry "bad" cholesterol (causal) and even C reactive protein, a measure of the inflammatory process that got considerable media attention as a potential cause of heart disease and now, also, seems to be no more than an association.


LDL causes for heart problems???
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Sep-05-18, 18:01
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Interesting article, and the sobering observation is the potential for misuse, which I believe has already started.

Yes, LDL particles that carry "bad" cholesterol (causal) with "bad" being the key. Now, the next question is whether particle size is considered good or bad cholesterol, as the assumption today is that preponderance of small particles is causal.
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Sep-05-18, 18:18
SabreCat50 SabreCat50 is offline
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Posts: 148
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 220/188/170 Male 6 ft 1 in
BF:
Progress: 64%
Location: Oakland, Florida, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
Interesting article, and the sobering observation is the potential for misuse, which I believe has already started.

Yes, LDL particles that carry "bad" cholesterol (causal) with "bad" being the key. Now, the next question is whether particle size is considered good or bad cholesterol, as the assumption today is that preponderance of small particles is causal.


It would have been nice if Taubes had been a little more specific with that comment. Too many people will take this as confirmation of what the establishment has been saying all along.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 07:03
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
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Default

There's more than enough evidence to recommend at least a whole foods diet for everyone; some people seem to do well with the Weston Price thing.

But that would be a disaster for corporations who buy tons of advertising.

Story of our modern lives.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 10:07
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
Default

I have a problem with the Weston Price Foundation, same problem I have with Paleo 2.0. Too many differences from the modern lifestyle to be certain just why they work. Kurt Harris stayed paleo just long enough to talk about paleo re-enactment not being the goal--I think it is the goal. Is it the lectins, is it the gluten, is it the fat soluble vitamins, is it the phytic acid, is it the fermentation, is it the.. McDonald's is just a sourdough and grass-fed special sauce Big Mac, and beef tallow french fries away from satisfying the Western Price foundation, and sorry, that might be better, but it's still a pretty cruddy diet in my book. I think it's plausible that if I went and lived with the Kitivans (not paleo technically, but...) and lived as they lived, and ate what they ate--then maybe their diet rich in sweet potato and cassava would be good for me. I'd hate to have to start smoking, though.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 10:20
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins
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Default

Having read a bit of the Weston PRice website, after reading The Dental DIet, I was taken aback by how far our modern foods and preparation has taken us from the "old ways". Determining what stresses the body the least is likely the way to optimal health.

I cant find my way to eleminating the microwave; but prefer to not let sons fire up the grill too often as charded food is more than suspect.

Perhaps just getting EVERYONE to improve their diets will benefit us all ( ie medical costs) rather than be overly concerned about the LDL as if it was the only health criteria.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 10:45
SabreCat50 SabreCat50 is offline
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Posts: 148
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 220/188/170 Male 6 ft 1 in
BF:
Progress: 64%
Location: Oakland, Florida, USA
Default

Werebear, teaser, Ms Arielle...

How are these replies relevant to the Gary Taubes article?
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 11:01
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
Default

Never said they were. Just replying to what's been said on the thread.
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 11:44
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/218/153 Female 5'8"
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Default

Quote:

Perhaps just getting EVERYONE to improve their diets will benefit us all ( ie medical costs) rather than be overly concerned about the LDL as if it was the only health criteria.


...........................................

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Thu, Sep-06-18 at 12:54.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 12:44
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 12,836
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Showing that a gene that raises cholesterol is a cause of heart disease is evidence that that raised cholesterol is a suspect, but few if any causes have a single effect, changing a gene that changes ldl levels is no exception. Does familial hypercholesterolemia result in a higher particle count? Change particle size? If decreased clearance of ldl cholesterol by the liver or other organs is involved--is there some related ldl-receptor signallling that's corrupted? This may have the advantages of better randomization etc., but the variable that's being isolated isn't homocysteine or ldl cholesterol, it's the particular genetic variations. Maybe a higher probability of a generated hypothesis bearing fruit than with epidemiology, but I don't think this replaces clinical trials.
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 14:27
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
I cant find my way to eleminating the microwave; but prefer to not let sons fire up the grill too often as charded food is more than suspect.


Herbivores which are grass fed make their own conjugated linoleic acid to counter charred meat problems. When grilled. And CLA is very good for us.

It was a fine system until we started messing with it.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 14:30
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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BF:
Progress: 84%
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreCat50
Werebear, teaser, Ms Arielle...

How are these replies relevant to the Gary Taubes article?


Oh, you want us to stay on subject? You nut!

It is an intriguing concept and far better than food questionaires. For instance, I got sick on a vegetarian diet: turns out, according to my probable ancestral diet, I don’t have the enzymes to get enough protein from animal sources. Which explains why I can do whey smoothies but not pea protein smoothies.

So it can have some utility by at least showing the range of human adaptation. Ask an Inuit to live like a Kitavan, and there will be trouble.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Sep-06-18, 21:31
mike_d's Avatar
mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
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Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/181/180 Male 72 inches
BF:disappearing!
Progress: 98%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I got sick on a vegetarian diet: turns out, according to my probable ancestral diet, I don’t have the enzymes to get enough protein from animal sources. Which explains why I can do whey smoothies but not pea protein smoothies.
Did you mean non animal sources? I use whey often because age affects your ability to digest or utilize meat sources of protein.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Sep-07-18, 06:45
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_d
Did you mean non animal sources? I use whey often because age affects your ability to digest or utilize meat sources of protein.


YES, sorry. Vegetable sources of protein = cannot digest very well and I don't get much protein from them. And this was a vegetarian diet, with cheese and eggs.

But of course, no one eats a vegan diet. A cardiologist podcast I put on the forum had a 20 year vegan revealing that all the big names who push this: they all cheat. She did not, and got very sick.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=481155
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Sep-07-18, 06:51
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,493
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
even C reactive protein, a measure of the inflammatory process that got considerable media attention as a potential cause of heart disease and now, also, seems to be no more than an association.


And yet, my own studies indicate that inflammation is enormously important in this process. The entire "metabolic syndrome" is the story of inflammation; higher than it should be, handled wrong by the body, defense mechanisms against it being the source of long-term damage.

Why aren't we all checking our CRP? Is it because they don't have a drug which will lower it for tons-o-money?

In my own case, my health stress over produced cortisol, and that led to inflammation issues. Treating the inflammation led to recovery: the return of sleep, better appetite and energy, even better moods.

They keep looking in the wrong places for the wrong things.
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