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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Oct-20-03, 11:38
lyle1152 lyle1152 is offline
New Member
Posts: 2
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 190/168/155 Male 5'9
BF:19%
Progress:
Default Semi-serious cyclist/exerciser – need help

I'm a new poster so if this topic is been covered before just let me know.

Is there a book or guide for a semi-serious exerciser or cyclist on appropriate levels of Carbs, fat intake and calories? Also, I see that several studies show increasing fat on a low carb diet may help in endurance, any practical guide for this?

I originally used the Atkins diet to lose 35 lbs. After the initial weight loss I started exercising allot (4-5 times a week, netting about 11 hours of moderate (70% max heart rate) to high (85% max heart rate). I did not gain much or lose any wight for about 6 months. I honestly just seemed to slowly quit counting carbs and calories (it was not like I tried to go to a high carb diet but I think it just happened – because of sports drinks and power bars…ect)

Due to business and family commitments my level of exercise has dropped. It looks like 5 – 8 hrs will be the limit. Because of the drop in exercise I have started gaining weight and body fat. I don’t think I will be able to give 11 hours per week.

Again, I would like a book or guide to understand the concepts because I might be able to cycle more later so I would like to adapt the diet then too.

Thanks.
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Oct-20-03, 12:31
readyami readyami is offline
New Member
Posts: 5
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 152/132/132 Female 67 in
BF:33%/15%/12%
Progress: 100%
Location: USA
Default

I've found it difficult to stay on a real low carb diet at 11 hours exercise. At about 6 hours, I began to have headaches. Active.com, a good resource, says that endurance athletes should get about 15% from protein, 60-70% from carbs, and the rest fats. Here's a link to a recent article:

I did strict Atkins for five months, then started triathlon training seriously, and had to give it up. I have maintained my weight (from Atkins loss) for almost a year at this level.

I will be doing the MS-150 in my state this weekend (cycling 150 miles in 2 days).

I think low carb is a super way to go to get the weight off. However, at higher levels of exercise, and especially long duration exercise, it is crucial for your body to have fuel to burn.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Oct-20-03, 12:33
readyami readyami is offline
New Member
Posts: 5
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 152/132/132 Female 67 in
BF:33%/15%/12%
Progress: 100%
Location: USA
Default Woops

whoops....couldn't find the link...will have to get the article from my home computer.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Oct-20-03, 13:01
Kestrel Kestrel is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 214
 
Plan: low carb
Stats: -/-/- Male 5'10
BF:
Progress:
Default

Lyle, if you're going to try semi-serious cycling, etc, on low carb, then remember to get sufficient energy via saturated fats, such as butter. Don't depend on olive oil, etc, as they probably aren't metabolized the same. Don't shortchange on fats, otherwise you won't be doing well.

Remember to give yourself sufficient time to adjust to low carb. Older folks such as myself may well need more time to adjust than younger people.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Oct-21-03, 04:18
Meg_S Meg_S is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,276
 
Plan: lots of meat
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 5 10"
BF:goal: 17%
Progress: 41%
Location: Germany (Canadian abroad)
Default

Here is a link for eating for athletic performance

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/athletic_diet.html
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-03, 11:57
dug dug is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 62
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 207/188/165
BF:
Progress: 45%
Default

fuel is in fat, protien and carbs, not just carbs. carbs are more readily converted to glycegen which is the actual fuel your muscles use, but the other fuels also get converted glycogen for use. I find that at about 50-60g carbs per day is sufficient for triathlon training. Of course everyone is unique so you will have to find the level that works for you. But it sems 50-60 is about what most athletes on here find keeps them from bonking.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-03, 12:23
lyle1152 lyle1152 is offline
New Member
Posts: 2
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 190/168/155 Male 5'9
BF:19%
Progress:
Default

First, thanks to everyone who responded.

When I find the right carb level for me,, let say for discussion it is 60 grams. What does everyone do on the days that they do high level excercise ( I ride for about 3 hours +- 15 minutes). Do you still keep to the 60? Do you go higher throughout the day or just during the high level exercise period? If it is just during the workout how do you apply the carb intake.

Thanks again.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-03, 13:19
Meg_S Meg_S is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,276
 
Plan: lots of meat
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 5 10"
BF:goal: 17%
Progress: 41%
Location: Germany (Canadian abroad)
Default

I think that you have to figure that our through experimentation. For example, two years ago I would have had better performance on long steep hikes with a heavy load on the pack if I ingested a lot of carbs. Now.. I do *much* better and feel great with minimal carbs, and extra fat. Minimal = under 20. My body has adjusted to prefer fat for fuel, over time, if you choose, yours might as well... but obviously it's individual.
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, Oct-25-03, 23:33
PurpleStix's Avatar
PurpleStix PurpleStix is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 182
 
Plan: Fuhrmann
Stats: 248/229.5/170 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 24%
Location: Penticton BC
Default

Lyle, you might want to read the Zone series of books by Barry Sears. Features of his program include:

- it is oriented towards performance and health rather than weight control. However if one is over-fat, the problem will correct itself
- 40% carbs, 30% fat, 30% protein
- Protein requirement is calculated from your lean body mass (muscle+bone) and your level of activity. Then carbs and fats are adjusted to fit the formula.
- Eat all 3 macronutrients together in a meal, and eat low glycemic index foods to slow the entry of glucose into the bloodstream.
- There is a lot of information about fatty acids in the diet and their impact on health
- There is a high fat variant for endurance athletes. Sears came up with the 40:30:30 for football players and Olympic swimmers. However, Sears acknowledges that endurance athletes might do better with more fat, while maintaining the ratio of carb to protein.

My experience: A few years ago I did Ironman at 190#, with at least 60% of calories from carbs, high glycemic index foods like bananas and Gatorade, and lots of carb loading. In I never lost any weight at all that year, even though by best fighting weight is 175# and I was training 20+ hours per week

Personally, I am going with C:F:P 20:50:30 right now, about 110 g carbs because it is more important at this stage for me to lose fat, and (lucky me) I get ketosis with that fuel mixture. When I get within 15# of my goal, I will likely move towards 40:30:30, and fine tune the ratios at that point. This is just for my martial arts and biking around town. At the moment I have no plans to do triathlons or other endurance events.

Why 40% carbs?
1. I expect it would be difficult to eat and digest >60% fat and protein when there is a high caloric requirement.
2. Full glycogen fuel tank is good, and useful for anaerobic work.
3. IMHO the glucose system is better regulated with insulin than ketones with glucagon. The rapid weight loss in Atkins induction is from glucagon running crazy while its controller, insulin is at low levels. Insulin is a very responsive hormone which can be bad or good depending on your genetics, diet and activity levels.
4. Glucose and ketones are converted to acetyl coenzyme A, then enter Kreb's cycle, where fuel is broken down into energy, CO2 and H2O. I am just guessing here, but there may be more energy available if both fuels are pushing their way into Kreb's cycle instead of just one. That may explain in part why Zone-balanced eating correlates with high performance.

Be warned: in 'Enter the Zone', Sears shows a lack of knowledge about ketosis. He says it is an 'abnormal metabolic state', but later in the book he gives examples of the benefits of high fat diets for fat loss. I did the Zone for a day and tested positive for ketones four hours after the last Zone meal. It is unlikely that he ever tested his athletes for ketones, and they were probably in ketosis part of the time.

I don't know what the best mix is. I just know that it isn't 60:25:15
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, Apr-03-12, 07:38
joel381's Avatar
joel381 joel381 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,022
 
Plan: Keto IF
Stats: 275/242.8/192 Male 72
BF:
Progress: 39%
Location: Michigan
Default Thread bump - cyclist

This last post by purple seemed interesting. I too have found that a "Zone" type level of carbs 40% seems to work around a high activity periods myself. The 60-70% carb levels seem way up there, at least for my activity level.
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, Apr-03-12, 16:38
scottie123 scottie123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 126
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 265/231/175 Male 72 inches
BF:265/231/175
Progress: 38%
Default

I find your 40% rationale interesting.

#1: There are people eating 100% fat diets. Many Atkins eaters are below 10% carbs and doing fine. I am not sure where that puts the fats and proteins. But it is hardly a reason to eat less (more) fat.

#2 Triathlon athletes are doing mostly aerobic training. The issue for all athletes is getting enough oxygen and energy to their muscles. Most athletes run out of oxygen before energy. And there is some suggestion that people who are burning fat (in ketosis) are better able to extend their endurance levels.

#3. I doubt if any of that is true or that anyone has ever suggested that is how being in ketosis works.

#4 Most fat is metabolized in the liver, not the muscles. Technically fat has more energy per pound. The major hurdle in burning fat is that to completely convert your body, it takes about 2-6 weeks ( that induction period ). Anyone exercising during the induction phase would have noticed the drop in energy/stamina/endurance. Then after this induction period, your stamina/endurace return to "normal".

You are assuming that ketones are an important component of LC food programs. Actually, ketones are part of a starvation scavenger pathway to supply the brain with energy when the body has no other food source. Most likely fat is being metabolized for energy OR fat is being converted into glucose by a yet unknown undetected metabolic pathway (my unproven scientific supposition/theory) Your blood sugar does not drop while burning fat after all.

Carbohydrates are NOT an essential food source. There must be a way to live without it.

A lot of training practices are anecdotal, passed down verbal from person to person. Often what is considered good is just plain wrong. A case in point -- stretching before exercising. Is it useful? Turns out, no. A study showed that the best warm up is to use the muscles in a manner like you are going to exert them. Jogging is a good warm up for racing.
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  #12   ^
Old Tue, Apr-03-12, 17:27
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Dr Steve Phinney, one of the New Atkins for a New You co-authors is a cyclist and has done studies on very low carb programs (<50 grams carbs/day)for bicyclists. He has been in continuous ketosis for 7+ years. Google him + cycling and see what you find.

I agree with scottie123. Carbs are NOT essential. There will be a transitional period, but once acclimated, stored body fat is the perfect fuel for endurance sports.
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  #13   ^
Old Tue, Apr-03-12, 17:57
joel381's Avatar
joel381 joel381 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,022
 
Plan: Keto IF
Stats: 275/242.8/192 Male 72
BF:
Progress: 39%
Location: Michigan
Default I find your 40% rationale interesting.

I don't replenish glycogen stores fast enough for repeated days of high sustained effort. I am just about maxed out riding with some of these guys. Some of these people race bikes it maybe easy for them.

I too can go without carbs at a reduced effort level, thats not my problem.

But as PurpleStix stated:

Quote:
Why 40% carbs?
2. Full glycogen fuel tank is good, and useful for anaerobic work.


So I bump the carbs up around the group ride periods which ends up at about 40% for the day. But having the energy not to be left behind is good, its nice to finish with the group.

If I just rode once a week it may not even be an issue.

Quote:
You are assuming that ketones are an important component of LC food programs.
Not sure where this is coming from?

Quote:
#2 Triathlon athletes are doing mostly aerobic training. The issue for all athletes is getting enough oxygen and energy to their muscles. Most athletes run out of oxygen before energy. And there is some suggestion that people who are burning fat (in ketosis) are better able to extend their endurance levels.
This does not sound like you engage in this activity and are reading about it.
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  #14   ^
Old Tue, Apr-03-12, 18:02
joel381's Avatar
joel381 joel381 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,022
 
Plan: Keto IF
Stats: 275/242.8/192 Male 72
BF:
Progress: 39%
Location: Michigan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
Dr Steve Phinney, one of the New Atkins for a New You co-authors is a cyclist and has done studies on very low carb programs (<50 grams carbs/day)for bicyclists. He has been in continuous ketosis for 7+ years. Google him + cycling and see what you find.

I agree with scottie123. Carbs are NOT essential. There will be a transitional period, but once acclimated, stored body fat is the perfect fuel for endurance sports.

Phinneys study was at like 60% VOmax and the peak performance of the cyclists was reduced, by how much ???
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  #15   ^
Old Tue, Apr-03-12, 18:02
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Steve Phinney on low carb bicycling:

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011...than-high-carb/
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