You would reach skeletal levels (i.e. bones and essential fat) which is not a point anyone would want to reach and 30 days is a little time when there's shortage of food. We don't certainly need to become obese, but when food is scarce we might need to go from 12% body fat to 22% body fat. Actually starch-free indigenous population do that all the time. In fact those who have studied the effect of excessive body fat, agree that it's not getting fatter which is unhealthy but staying fatter long term.



The body produces fat storing enzyme which exist for the purpose of storing dietary fat as body fat without insulin or carbs. It's not something an organism that wants to remain thin and dissipate extra energy would produce. If you consume 10.000 calories of pure fat, there's no possible physiological way for it to be discarded or burned as heat instead of being stored. You probably an produce some extra heat and some extra elimination, but it's very tiny compared to the amount that can very easily be stored by the body.

Lipogenesis is an ungoing process. We're always storing fat. We eat fat (or other food) and measured lipogenesis occur.

So it's a matter of whatever we're storing fat or producing fat, because we're doing it all the time. It's a matter of whether at the end of the day we're burning what we have stored or whether it will still stored tomorrow. This is known as fat balance. Fat balance has its own equilibrium. If we're burning more fat, we're storing more fat. If we're storing less fat, we're burning less fat.

Michael Eades lately warned his clients not to underestimate calories. If they're not losing they're consuming too much calories. There's definitely a metabolic advantage of low-carb diets (around 90 calories) there's some extra fat discarded by the bowel (around 40 calories) there's some extra dissipatd as heat (around 50 calories) but this doesn't mean you can eat 2000 calories in excess and hope to lose weight, physiologically it's like sci-fi.

Unfortunately all the studies on metabolism (measuring the metabolism) has shown there's not much of a difference between an high metabolism and a slow metabolism, the metabolism can't get much higher or lower. Of course all calories summed up make quite a difference as the effect of cumulative.

Sorry to be so dense but is there a way I can work out how many calories I should have on a Barry Groves diet. In his book he says that one can still lose weight on a higher calorie count. On Weight Watchers I was allowed 16 point which I think were about 1300 calories. My height is 5ft 3½ins. My weight is 172½ibs.

Hey -

from what I've seen - and I've seen a lot of 'experiments' going on regarding low carb, or no-carb and fat intake, is that some people can lose on astronomical amounts of calories (mostly from fat), and others can't.

From my own experience (I've been high-fatting and what most would consider low-proteining but slightly higher than K's recommendations for well over 3 years now), which as stated above, might not be useful info for anybody but me - well anyway, I now weigh 8 kilos more than when I was doing straight Atkins, but I'm more or less the same size. High fat diets are very sustainable - high protein ones rarely seem to be, but I didn't get any weight loss. I'm stuck at around 24% body fat on high fat, but it's enjoyable eating so I continue to do it.

It could be that I never managed to get my carb intake high enough, or that 10g over my protein allotment makes all the difference, so I'm reading with interest. Maybe you have to be mega strict with the ratios/grams to get success.

Once you get used to eating mostly fat, it seems sickening to have to eat too much meat to be honest.

Anyway I don't think there is any 'rule' for everybody, because some people lose really well with lots of protein, and others don't. I've seen it all, and there seems to be no rules that work for everybody - apart from maybe not eating processed stuff etc.

Well so far I've only gained 2 pounds. Still my TOM is due in a week so it could be explained by that. I don't feel like I'm losing weight though.

I do go over on quite a few of my macronutrients yesterday though... what a pig I was. But I stayed within 3g of the protein.

Dorian I think we are just not on the same wave length at all. Since our premise are 180 degrees apart, we look at everything from a totally different perspective. I was exactly like you before reading GCBC (you should at least watch this video).

Take a look at this thread here you will see my posts before I read the book. You will see I was saying the same things you are now Here's a couple quotes written by me before.




And here is what I wrote after reading the book.


I was very angry after reading the book, to think the establishment let us believe it was about calories still angers me a lot.

It gives you an idea of how our hypothesis could change your life too if you read the book.

Patrick

Sounds like you have it pretty well figured out. Doesn't matter what other folks can and can't do - if you've gained weight while LC'ing - lower your protein. If you download the calculator (free) and plug in your stats you'll see how much protein you really can eat the first month. And yes, the strict ratios do matter. Give it a try and see how it goes; might be just the thing that will work for you.

Lisa

Dorian, you'll enjoy GCBC! It's tough reading the first 2 sections but the rest of it is a breeze... except for the fact you'll want to use the book as a weapon against the next idiot obesity researcher you run into.

Nancy, could be TOM - so wait and see. But if it turns out that's not the reason you might want to move to the second month's numbers (after all, you're already 'adapted' to LC) and lower your protein to that lowest level (57) while upping your fat to second month for you: 151-210g and carbs: 34-54g. The irony is the weight gain (if not TOM) may well prove that you have a BPAA problem, big time.

Lisa

I just realized something.

I downloaded the Calculus Victus here but it doesn't ask what weight I want to be (due weight right?). It just asked for age, height, weight, gender and body frame. Did I miss where to enter what you want to weigh? Maybe the below are not the corerect numbers I need since I have no clue what I should weigh lol. I'm reading through the help index now too.

I swear, by the end of this week I'm going to know this stuff!

Khama, I think it tells you what weight you should be also.

Argh, right you are! If I had clicked the tab that said "advice" I'd see my recommended weight for 165cm high is 60kg and my BMI is 33 (maybe that's current BMI)

Thak you

I'm having a difficult time with it. I've gained 4lbs in 3 days *weeps* and can't seem for the life of me to get my protein down.

I'm also back to be unhappy with my WOE. I love love love the paleo life and never worried about weighing or measuring or how much I ate. I ate when I was hungry (twice a day, a couple of pieces of fatty meat and/or eggs) and wasn't hungry at all the rest of the time.

Maybe I'm stressing myself out (YOU, Blue? Noooooo!) or maybe it's hormones. My AF is also due soon (actually she's late).

Yes, it was from the homodiet site. I didn't realize it was a fan site, thought it was the actual Dr. K site. On the homediet site it told you to calculate your "due weight" by taking your height (about 170cm in my case) and subtracting 100 from it, which gave me 70. So the 'homodiet' site then goes on to say that this value is your protein requirement. But now I understand it is not the *real* site.



Well I'm still trying to get a handle on the protein amounts in things. I leave for work at 6:50 AM, and no way can I have breakfast that early before I leave. I'm really not ready to eat until about 9:30-10:00 AM. Because they are pretty cheap ($3) and good I've been in the habit of getting a cheese omelet from the deli downstairs. And because lunches are expensive and I can't afford to eat out I've been in the habit of brown-bagging a can of sardines in olive oil for lunch, and usually have some nuts as a snack at some point during the day.

But the protein really adds up for all those things. I need to try to get a handle on what I can brown-bag that is 1) filling, 2) easy to pack and transport in a backpack, 3) higher in fat and lower in protein.

Today, for example, I brought some plain Greek yogurt for breakfast, along with some fresh organic strawberries, and a 1/4 cup raw pine nuts. But later in the morning I got really hungry again, and ended up having another 1/4 cup of pine nuts!

The problem with being at work is that if I get really hungry, and don't have tons of food with me (which is hard to do) my options of finding something fatty and low in protein and carbs is nil. Downstairs I can get packages of nuts, and I can get hard-boiled eggs. Those have usually been my emergency snacks if I had to get something. But all my other options are essentially no options at all - very sugary and carby. And being T2 diabetic I do have to keep my carbs quite low. So still trying to work out how to do this at work. Clearly being at home is much easier.




I *think* I will feel the same way once I get more attuned to it. I actually love most of the fattier food choices and have always felt quite a lot of guilt over that, even when being LC and "knowing" that fat was okay! I just have to figure out how to do this in "public" and not blow my limits. Yesterday being Easter sort of derailed me. I had Easter dinner at my house so I was able to control the menu, and keep everything LC. I made a pot roast and only had one teeny slice, about 1 inch wide by 3 inches long by less than a 1/4 inch thick. But I *did* have some smoked salmon, cheese, etc. I tried to be careful. However, that evening I did my best to enter what I had eaten into Lifeform, and I'm sure I missed something there, or got portions wrong. But still wound up with over 3000 calories and 113g of protein! Luckily I only ate that one meal yesterday, but trying to be back on the straight and narrow again today.




That question was a result of my using the homodiet site as my reference for the diet plan, which said my protein requirement based on my 'due weight' was 70g a day. That was so much higher than the numbers you gave me, which was what prompted my question ... but now I realize it is not the formal site.

But no, I have no intention of ever eating cakes, cookies, hundreds of carbs ever again. I *can't*. I've sworn off wheat sugar and polyunsaturated vegetable oils for life. Of course this means I can never eat commerical mayo, commercial salad dressings,etc. But I'm having fun making my own! Wheat does a number on me anyway. I have no intention of "going back". This is for a lifetime. I was just confused about the differing protein requirements. But now I know better than to take the word of homodiet as gospel.

Coupla things. You know a 4 lb gain in 3 days is water, not fat weight, especially being overdue. But - if you're also not getting your protein down in range, the extra high fat will definitely derail you. Maybe if you posted what you ate yesterday (w/all the details, so if you ate meat, how many ounces and what kind) we could make some suggestions that would up the fat and lower the protein a bit.


You should never be hungry on K. Post yesterday's menu and let's have a look. Maybe you're not getting enough fat or carbs or calories or all three. And I remember back in the stone age when I still got my TOM -- I was starving all the time for a day or so. I literally ate every hour on the hour.

Lisa

Worse - it gives a simplified advice and just for the 'now' -- not for the long haul. For instance, first let's look at 'frame' (small, normal, large):


If you have a normal frame, at 5'7" according to most charts your due weight (with 3 lbs of clothes, but not shoes) is: 133-147. That's 60kg - 67kg. The calculator says 64kg - right smack in the middle of that range and nowhere near 70kg, which is 154. If after taking the wrist test above though, you are truly large-framed, then the due weight would be 70kg.


Eat half an omelet with a slice of toast loaded with butter or with some hash browns. Or two poached eggs with butter and the bread or potatoes. If it's an omelet, wrap the other half up to eat for lunch, along with yogurt and fruit you brown bag.

If you eat yogurt with fruit for breakfast, your can of sardines is fine - but not enough. Bring a vitacrisp or rycrisp with you and lots of butter to spread on it. Bring a square of dark chocolate to have with cream and coffee, or tea and coffee for dessert. And bring a piece of homemade LC cheesecake made with 1 yolk and sour cream and heavy cream instead of a lot of eggs. Lower protein and higher fat. It's how I make mine and it's absolutely delicious. It will make a great snack with coffee and cream in the afternoon.


See note above about eating MORE food. But also - macadamias have about half the protein of pine nuts and more fat. And Diedra said yesterday that on the real K site, it states that protein from non-animal sources aren't counted toward your daily allotment. That should help a lot.


Holidays tend to kill us all. Give yourself a week or so to make the switch and really get a handle on the food, then see what your body is telling you. And if you really are large framed, change the parameters - which you can do by downloading and installing the calc - despite your reluctance.

Lisa