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  #1   ^
Old Sun, May-19-24, 06:49
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Demi Demi is offline
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Default ‘Personalising stuff that doesn’t matter’: the trouble with the Zoe nutrition app

Quote:
‘Personalising stuff that doesn’t matter’: the trouble with the Zoe nutrition app

The wellness project claims to help users make ‘smarter food choices’ based on ‘world-leading science’. But many scientists claim its fee-based services are no better than generic advice


Your body is unique, so is the food you need.” This is the central credo of personalised nutrition (PN), as professed by its leading UK advocate, the health science company Zoe. Since its launch in April 2022, 130,000 people have subscribed to the service – at one point it had a waiting list of 250,000 – which uses a pin prick blood test, stool sample and a wearable continuous glucose monitor (CGM) to suggest “smarter food choices for your body”.

Like other companies working in this space, Zoe has all the hallmarks of serious science. Its US equivalent Levels counts among its advisers many respected scientists, including Robert Lustig, famous for raising the alarm about the harms of refined carbohydrates such as sugar. Zoe is fronted by King’s College London scientist Tim Spector and claims to be “created with world-leading science”.

The problem with personalised nutrition industry is that this is still a young research field, and there is not yet good enough evidence across the field to believe that we have yet found worthwhile novel interventions that are more helpful than standard advice. Although a Food Standards Agency report stated last year that “glucose monitoring and gut microbiome analysis may prove to become more robust and actionable” it spoke for many experts when it concluded that “the benefits of PN seem somewhat marginal when compared to what is already understood about a healthy diet.”

One major issue is that the personalisation only goes so far, and leans heavily on a couple of key biomarkers. Take the use of CGMs. These allow wearers to see almost in real time their blood glucose fluctuations and especially their post-prandial peaks. Zoe’s theory has been summed up by Spector: “If you are having multiple spikes in a day, your mean glucose level will be raised. We know that raises your risk of diabetes and heart disease.” So if you can see which foods or meals produce the biggest spikes, the idea is that you can tailor your diet so as to make them flatter.


However, most scientists remain unconvinced that non-diabetic users of CGMs can glean useful health information from them. “Glucose in someone without diabetes is a minuscule part of your overall metabolic health, let alone overall health,” says Nicola Guess, an academic dietitian and researcher at Oxford University specialising in the dietary prevention and management of type 2 diabetes. “There is a lot of interpersonal variability and one person might have more and bigger peaks than another yet have the same average blood sugar level.” Doctors can accurately diagnose diabetes or pre-diabetes by a standard fasting or HbA1c blood test. In contrast, says Guess: “The data from a CGM has no such diagnostic value” – something that Zoe acknowledges.

Another problem is that personalised nutrition research bases a good deal of its findings on analysis of mountains of data collected by its users. This throws up lots of associations between diet, blood glucose levels, weight and so on. But these “cross-sectional” studies can only ever find associations, not causation. So the existence of an association between greater spikes and higher average blood glucose levels, even in healthy people, does not tell us anything about causation. The higher spikes may be a consequence of an underlying metabolic problem, not the cause of one. If that were the case, keeping the spikes down would be addressing a signal of a problem, not its cause.

Worse, in very large data sets, Guess explains, cross-sectional studies will inevitably generate false positives: associations that are statistically significant but in effect random, “like buying an iPhone on a Tuesday is associated with risk of Crohn’s”.

Given these scientific limitations, Shivani Misra, a diabetes researcher and consultant at Imperial College London, says she sees no evidence for the theory that healthy people should seek to flatten their blood glucose curves. She decries what she calls the “glucose-centricity” encouraged by CGMs, which she sees as “so unilaterally focused on one metric of metabolism” when there are “so many other inputs that we can’t capture”. “I think people are focusing on glucose as a marker simply because we have technology to measure it,” says Guess. Personalised nutrition often starts with what it can measure, not with what is most important for our health.

The usefulness of stool analysis is also questionable. Again, the basic premise behind the test is reasonable. Even James Kinross, a reader in colorectal surgery at Imperial College London, agrees that “the microbiome is highly individualised, and it is probably the most important determinant of our response to different disease risks or to different medicines.” However, along with many other experts, he believes that we do not yet know enough about what a healthy microbiome looks like. The best advice to nurture a healthy gut microbiome remains to eat plenty of whole foods, especially fibrous plants, and minimise your intake of broad-spectrum antibiotics.

Most importantly, there simply is no such thing as good and bad bacteria, period. A bacterium may do good in one person and bad in another. Take the example of Escherichia coli, found in most guts. This is a species with much variation. Jacques Ravel, professor of microbiology and immunology at the University of Maryland, explains: “There are some E coli that are going to give you major diarrhoea, and there are some that are essential for your wellbeing.” So a test for it lacks clinical validity, meaning that “there’s absolutely no clear way of saying how this maps on to health or ill-health”.

Moreover, Ravel has published a paper detailing several studies that question the accuracy of stool testing laboratories – some of which could not reliably identify the bacteria in the gut, with certain labs in a US study delivering different results for the same sample.

“My view is that Zoe is personalising stuff that doesn’t matter,” says Guess. “The things that kill people in the UK and globally are LDL cholesterol and blood pressure.” Data, she notes, that Zoe doesn’t measure.

A key stumbling block for personalised nutrition is that in the scientific health world, you can do cutting-edge research or you can offer well established advice, but it’s challenging to do both. Companies such as Zoe try to ride both horses at the same time. On the one hand, Zoe is a research project, in the constant process of analysing its users’ data and looking for new insights. On the other, it is already giving users advice based on its work in progress.

Sarah Berry, an associate professor at King’s College London and Zoe’s chief scientist, bites this bullet. Of Zoe’s science, she admits that “it’s fair to say it’s contentious and it’s contested”, but that’s because “anything that’s emerging is always more contentious”. Still, she justifies Zoe running “ahead of the curve” on the basis that “if we wait until we have however many RCTs [randomised control trials] and this causal link beyond doubt, I don’t think we’ll ever progress to a point of being able to give people actionable advice”.

Misra says she doesn’t buy this. “There are well designed studies that are gamechangers, that actually change outcomes for people in a compelling way and that are cost-effective and change policy. I can give you numerous examples.” One is the research into low-calorie diets, intended to push type 2 diabetes into remission. “That was a randomised controlled trial, a very high-impact study. Within three years of that finding, it’s now a national policy, and everyone can have access to the remission programme.”

Zoe also blurs another important distinction. Healthcare providers are subject to a number of onerous legal constraints. But Zoe currently operates as a wellness company, which, as Ravel says, runs “without the regulation that applies to clinical and medical operations”. Hence the disclaimer at the front of the Insights report, sent to everyone who completes Zoe’s two weeks of monitoring, which warns: “Your insights are not clinical test results … Before making any changes to your diet, please consult your physician.”

Yet the entire programme is designed to drive diet change, gamifying eating so that users seek to achieve a Zoe score of more than 75 out of 100 for their daily food intake. Its marketing is littered with health claims, with its homepage imploring people to “Eat for your body and health”, listing benefits such as “Improved gut health”, “Reach healthy weight” and “Improve overall health”.

When I asked Berry about this tension between very clearly offering advice yet denying any such thing, she said she would have to get back to me. Despite pressing for this, no such clarification was forthcoming. “Why aren’t the regulators more interested in this?” asks Kinross. “I do not, for the life of me, understand it.”

Yet Zoe claims that it is “scientifically proven to work”. This rests on the publication of the first peer-reviewed study of its programme this month. There were some positive but modest outcomes: an average weight loss of 2.46kg is significant but not very impressive after more than four months. However, there were no changes in various other biomarkers, including blood pressure, insulin, glucose and postprandial triglycerides.

More importantly, the study compared Zoe participants with a control group who were far from blind tested. They were simply given standard dietary advice and a helpline to call. It was entirely predictable that people who logged every meal with Zoe for 18 weeks would eat more healthily. Nor was the study group as a whole representative of the general population: 86% were women and their average body mass index was 34 when anything over 30 is considered to be obese.

Guess has already posted a blog detailing criticism of the study while Kinross says the trial looks “designed to create what I would call marketing science, which is just enough science that you can convince a layperson that this has got value”.

When challenged about the design of the experiment, Berry admitted “if we wanted to test the efficacy of purely the Zoe scores, then we would need to match the method of delivery”, so that both groups were using the same app. That would allow a study “to look at how the actual advice itself compares to the standard care advice delivered in the same way”. But although Berry says that would be good, the actual study was designed to to test “the efficacy of the Zoe programme” as a package, comparing it only to “standard care”. That seems a strange objective: if Zoe’s USP is the personalisation of the advice, why design a study that deliberately doesn’t test those elements?

In the meantime, consumers are actually paying personalised nutrition companies to have their bodies surveilled to an extent that Kinross finds “Orwellian”. Zoe requires a one-off payment of a penny short of £300 and a monthly subscription of £24.99. “People don’t understand the value of the data that they are paying to give away,” he says.

Such are the issues when personalised nutrition is a research project – and people are paying large sums to be its guinea pigs.

https://www.theguardian.com/science...ellness-science
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, May-19-24, 07:50
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JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Quite a different tune from the Guardian than The Times article about Zoe two weeks ago! https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...732&postcount=1
Thanks for posting. How to actually use CGM data should become a big topic this summer when they become OTC in the US.
Will Stelo have all the usual warnings about the studies used, how to analyze your BG in light of other Biomarkers. The package insert will be a small book
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, May-19-24, 13:29
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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I skimmed over most of that article, but this caught my eye:

Quote:
Another problem is that personalised nutrition research bases a good deal of its findings on analysis of mountains of data collected by its users. This throws up lots of associations between diet, blood glucose levels, weight and so on. But these “cross-sectional” studies can only ever find associations, not causation. So the existence of an association between greater spikes and higher average blood glucose levels, even in healthy people, does not tell us anything about causation. The higher spikes may be a consequence of an underlying metabolic problem, not the cause of one. If that were the case, keeping the spikes down would be addressing a signal of a problem, not its cause.

Worse, in very large data sets, Guess explains, cross-sectional studies will inevitably generate false positives: associations that are statistically significant but in effect random, “like buying an iPhone on a Tuesday is associated with risk of Crohn’s”.


Funny how that works the opposite way when they're referring to factors that they have decided are associated with heart disease, stroke, cancer, etc, while deftly ignoring other factors they had in common.

Better yet is the way they associate various dietary or lifestyle habits with "all cause death". So if more people die in car accidents after starting to eat a low fat, high fiber diet than died in car accidents while eating a high protein, high fat diet - then surely it's the low fat, high fiber diet that caused them to die in car accidents, right?
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, May-20-24, 04:13
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
The problem with personalised nutrition industry is that this is still a young research field, and there is not yet good enough evidence across the field to believe that we have yet found worthwhile novel interventions that are more helpful than standard advice. Although a Food Standards Agency report stated last year that “glucose monitoring and gut microbiome analysis may prove to become more robust and actionable” it spoke for many experts when it concluded that “the benefits of PN seem somewhat marginal when compared to what is already understood about a healthy diet.”


This is a load of bull I wish I had on my rose garden, which I also wish I had. But I'm working on my stamina.

The ol' "not enough evidence" because we have lots of it on glucose monitoring. Which is why they added "gut microbiome analysis" because now it's "technically" true and so forth.

And "compared to what is already understood about a healthy diet" is also admitting that previous apps based on their version of common wisdom don't work and they cost less. I guess. So many weasel words that are used properly in science papers but not here, for instance.

All they have to do is admit when the science is unavoidable, as in the "blood sugar control" of the latest drugs, but never-ever-ever equate blood sugar control with something people can do all by themselves.

The very fact that "one size does not fit all" never stopped them with calorie counting, so the very concept that there IS NOT one food plan that works for everyone is what they have become allergic to. And become busy adding BS to the consensus that Chat GPT and other AI "aids" are programmed to do.

GIGO. Garbage mean, and garbage out. They pay for all the garbage IN. Because there isn't a Chat GPT to analyse actual studies, are there? Especially the recent ones that have been dug out just since I started low carb two decades ago.

Which only proves how right Dr. Atkins always was.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, May-20-24, 04:17
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Also occurred to me that the latest drugs are an admission of defeat of the marketing/profit loop, because Pharma had to fall back on "make them eat less."

And the way it does work means disaster when the body, already worn out and has gears slipping, can stop altogether, and then people spend weeks in the ICU getting it started again.

Mostly, not death, even if the person must be tube-fed moving forward. Which means they are still keeping these cases under the radar of people who aren't looking for them.

Because if you look, especially in regional outlets or people sharing their own experiences... it's everywhere. And I would think -- though who knows? -- that people with such an experience, even if they wanted to, wouldn't be prescribed the drug any more.

But tube fed people don't have problems with overweight, either. There we go, she said sarcastically. Medical miracle.
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, May-20-24, 10:28
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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I debated posting this in the War Zone, but these thoughts are applicable to this thread. My interest starts with the following fact which has been discussed on this forum:

The FDA has approved purchase of CGMs without needing a prescription to begin summer 2024. I have a few family members and friends who would like to wear them to track their BG responses from meals and other activities. The common available CGMs today, which have their own smart phone apps for BG tracking, are the following: Dexcom 7, Abbott Labs Freestyle Libre 2, and Medtronic 670G.

If I were starting my journey to adapt my WOE today, I would start with a CGM solely for the initial feedback to learn what my typical food consumption is doing to my BG response. I'm an admitted techno and bio geek, so I'm definitely an outlier. I can't use myself as a typical example. In my view, getting someone who understands they need to eat healthier in order to improve and extend healthspan, a CGM for a period of time would be a great way to personalize their understanding of how foods impact their metabolism. I don't see a CGM as a long-term wearable, just as I never needed to track blood ketones or blood glucose after my first periods of time experimenting with these meters. So, that's the context, as I'm one who believes that anyone is capable of learning which specific lifestyle changes can achieve improved health.

Both Zoe and Levels, mentioned in the article, provide extended, personalized health feedback to achieve a healthier lifestyle. The heart (cost) of their services are based around the software of their apps. Do people really need that level of detail? Are these services merely for those who have the financial means to use these services and exclude anyone else who cannot afford them? It appears that way.

About Zoe
The article provides the information about the service which takes baseline "health marker" measurements to establish a personalized health plan. It includes a CGM and is expensive at £299.99 membership fee and a monthly charge of £24.99. It's not clear what the CGM sensors cost that usually must be replaced every 10-14 days. I won't criticize the article in detail, which has many comments from "experts" based on old, questionable belief systems such as the need to measure LDL cholesterol and blood pressure. Give me a break.

About Levels
Levels, provides a method of continuous glucose monitoring without a prescription, which is currently required in the US to get a CGM device and usually requires insurance coverage to defray the cost. The Levels monitoring system is very expensive, as it's a subscription that includes a CGM and a phone application. The Levels app is the heart of the service that records a user's data and tracks biomarkers over time. The price of the Levels phone App subscription is $199/year, the CGM is a Dexcom 7 with monthly supplies of replacement sensors for $199/month. To get started, the price for the first month is $407 on sale, with $199 charged every month thereafter.

So now we have two services tracking biomarkers based on BG and reactions to foods that seemingly would be used for one's life? I'm amused as this is a more in-depth tracker than the wearable devices that became so popular over the past 10 years, and I'm still trying to understand why one ever required these devices to track steps, sleep, and other stuff that proved to be ineffective. Now we have devices and services that personalize one's data to achieve improved health. Seduced by technology is a term and dynamic I've witnessed many times over. Are these simply more of the same? Are these simply exclusive devices that are attainable by only those who can afford them? When I explore the companies' websites, both services are presented as very advanced metrics to help one become healthy. I don't for a minute believe that the founders and advisors are that benevolent. They just might be the latest expensive gimmicks designed to appeal to certain types who make these companies wealthy before the realization that one doesn't need this level of feedback to achieve health. Just a little knowledge can be a powerful ally.

Final thought: when we in the USA have the ability to buy CGMs without prescriptions this summer, what will these devices cost? I know enough now to never recommend Zoe or Levels. Will one be able to afford a device to simply get them on the right track? That's the most important question . . .

Last edited by GRB5111 : Mon, May-20-24 at 10:33.
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, May-20-24, 15:27
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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Rob - and here I thought that my phone keeping track of how much time I spend on my phone and which apps/websites I use for how long each week was a bit overblown.

It also breaks down each day's phone use as to when and for how long you use each type of app/site. (most of my time on the phone is spent reading - and I already know that, so for me it's just silly to have all that info.)

It's supposedly able to track things like sleep and steps too - I haven't even set those up on this phone. Why bother? I know approximately what time I drop off to sleep and when I wake up - I don't need my phone to tell me that stuff. (I did have a step counter set up on the phone I had when I was running back and forth all day making corrections and helping customers at 8 self scan registers - helped me see why I was always utterly exhausted and aching all over at the end of my shift)

_____

Having said that, I can see where it might be useful to have a CGM for a while.

If you're been LC for a while and you're not making much progress - it could be helpful to see what your glucose is actually doing.

If you're just starting out on LC, it could be helpful and encouraging to see the actual affect various foods have on your blood sugars. Might be especially helpful for diabetics, if they will heed the information it provides, and not just use it as a way to eat whatever they want and just drown the excess glucose in more insulin.

But having a bunch of other information - unless you have some serious metabolic issues, they're probably not really necessary at all.
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Old Mon, May-20-24, 15:51
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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I got blood glucose meters, free, at my local pharmacy, and we only needed them for a couple of weeks, testing our responses. We could have picked up more, but we were learning how our body responded, and didn't need them.

The glucose meter was more expensive, but not that much, and was invaluable for DH when he started.

But constant? I don't think that's necessary, and I agree with Rob that it seems like much too much.

Conspicuous consumption kind of thing. Thorstein Veblen.
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Old Mon, May-20-24, 18:44
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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I can imagine the Hollywood set getting them, and interrupting every event/interview/filming/recording schedule with "I need to go right now - My CGM just alerted me that I need to immediately eat exactly 2 oz chicken, 1/2 tsp avocado oil, and 1 cup spinach leaves, rest for 5 minutes, then do 10 squats, and drink 12 oz of sparkling water."
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, May-21-24, 01:43
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
I can imagine the Hollywood set getting them, and interrupting every event/interview/filming/recording schedule with "I need to go right now - My CGM just alerted me that I need to immediately eat exactly 2 oz chicken, 1/2 tsp avocado oil, and 1 cup spinach leaves, rest for 5 minutes, then do 10 squats, and drink 12 oz of sparkling water."


I laughed because it's true!

It reminds me of the obsessive athletes I observed, where everything revolved around themselves and their "training" while they neglected the people in their lives. Who were expected to support this endeavor with them, though some of them were vocal about how little they got from that.

Of course, not everyone is like that, which means it's not about the fitness. A lot of carnivore forums were infested with them. They were there to brag about their schedules and regimens.

While I've lost weight and gained health without any formal exercise except walking. I've known pros who seem to manage an actual life, too. So yes, it will be the new expensive toy, until the next expensive toy.

I could see it for a month, as we test our bodies about what we are feeding it. And then, hopefully, settle on a healthy regimen so you don't need it. Making EVERYTHING a consumer item is also ridiculous.
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Old Tue, May-21-24, 09:01
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
I can imagine the Hollywood set getting them, and interrupting every event/interview/filming/recording schedule with "I need to go right now - My CGM just alerted me that I need to immediately eat exactly 2 oz chicken, 1/2 tsp avocado oil, and 1 cup spinach leaves, rest for 5 minutes, then do 10 squats, and drink 12 oz of sparkling water."

Hilarious. Well said, and that's how Levels is being marketed, as an exclusive device to tell you what to do. After listening to one of their recorded all-hands business meetings (yes, these are available on the Levels website), the sales data and conversion rates were a big topic. Conversion rates were in the context of converting a monthly trial user to an annual subscription member. "Let's make sure to stress that fact that you can't live without these devices." What a world.
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Old Wed, May-22-24, 16:14
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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I thought what I'd read about the Noom app was bad enough, paying Noom to pick apart everything about what you've eaten, what you haven't eaten, and whether you've exercised enough each day... like the old Weight Watchers, only instead of a weekly weigh in and meeting to guilt you into "doing better", harassment multiple times daily from your phone.

The GLP-1 drugs made it too easy, although the exclusivity and high price tag were there for a while. There's too many people using GLP-1 drugs now - it's not exclusively for the rich and famous any more, so it was apparently time for a new exclusive product.

The CGM is just the latest and greatest expensive way to assure everyone around you that you're at the cutting edge of diet and exercise lifestyle technology.
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Old Thu, May-23-24, 04:57
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
The CGM is just the latest and greatest expensive way to assure everyone around you that you're at the cutting edge of diet and exercise lifestyle technology.


The irony is they give them away to the "rich," like those swag bags at the Oscars, because it's both valuable and also written off as a promotional expense.

The poors get their own version, according to their marketing and means. When anyone could do it with a cheap or free blood glucose meter, as DH and I did.
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Old Thu, May-23-24, 07:15
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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I do view a CGM as a valuable tool and distinctively different from a BG meter due to its ability to record and graph BG fluctuations over time. While it has a bit of a lag in terms of timing of BG changes after eating, it’s an excellent way to understand how one reacts to foods over time. Because we respond to diet differently, learning our unique responses to foods we eat is informative and can be used to emphasize those foods that are healthy for each of us. I simply want to track simple BG fluctuations to see how foods, mood, and sleep influence how I process glucose at a reasonable cost for a few months. I don’t require the value-added stuff that Levels and Zoe offer at a high price. I certainly don’t need a device to tell me whether I’ve had enough sleep or track my physical activity, I already am aware of those things. How those activities affect my metabolism via BG responses can be tracked by a simple CGM device without the expensive bells and whistles.
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Old Thu, May-23-24, 09:14
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cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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One of the fallacies of these kinds of devices is that more information is always better but this is not always true. Our bodies are much more complicated than any one of these devices can capture and therefore the info provided by the devices probably won’t result in the level of control that they promise because they do not tell the whole story. Also how this info is getting interpreted is subject to variation and change. Much of the whole story will remain a mystery and our bodies will continue to fluctuate in ways we cannot completely understand or control. When this occurs all that information we are accumulating through the devices can produce confusion rather than benefit. I have come to realize that the way I was eating when I started all this, low carb paleo as I call it, is still the best way for me to eat. All that I have really added to it is prioritizing protein and figuring out the specific foods to which I am sensitive and then eliminating them. I don’t need these fancy bg devices or their personalized diet advice. I do find counting steps useful because it keeps me motivated to reach my goal daily. The goal, however, I determined for myself, no device necessary.
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