I’ve been a casual observer to these boards for a few weeks now, and I now feel compelled to share my $.02

I respect the fact that there are some intelligent people on this board –people who have done their homework. I also realize that nothing I say will convince anybody here otherwise, and that there will be negative responses to this post. I understand, and fully respect your opinions. I have read Atkins book (New diet revolution), I just don’t agree with most of his conclusions. I find humour in the fact that people assume that if you’ve read the book, then surely you must agree with it. Based on other research, and my own clinical experience – I have to say that I am not convinced.

This board is truly entertaining on many fronts. First of all, this section in particular is entitled “war zone”. Call me crazy, but this denotes to me that there may be (get ready for this)…opinions that differ from the LC way of life! In reading posts by Wildcard and more recently, Willam - it was amusing to me just how sensitive and irritable low carbers get when somebody suggests ideas that are even remotely out of the confines of your safe little low carb asylum (irritability, is after all a side effect of low carb) . If the intention of this board is to be strictly for “support”, then I would encourage the moderators to eliminate this category altogether, or at the very least, direct contributors to the “please read before posting here” section.

Now, on to other issues. I will explain why I don’t think LCD’s (particularly Atkins) are the be-all-end-all health panacea they are being touted as. I will even save you the trouble of responding to my assertions by giving you the “typical” low carb response in certain cases. But first, some common ground.

Yes, we know that refined grains and sugar are not conducive to good health, and can (as a result of excess calories and the affect of the insulin overreaction) result in excess weight gain. We hardly need to buy Atkins books (and hybrids) to tell us this. Every dietician I have encountered agrees with this. Which brings me to my first point.

1)Interesting how dieticians are constantly bashed on this board (again, for not conforming to the tyranny of low carb pride). I don’t know ANY RD that espouses eating a lot of REFINED carbs – unless they are training. And all of them recommend moderating sugar. Susan Kleiner (PhD, RD) for one, encourages moderate carbohydrate, and higher protein eating. You cannot expect experts such as RD’s and other health care professionals to instantaneously change their entire philosophies when they have substantially more research to back up their methods.

Low carber response: “Nooooo, dieticians are all out to get low carb, and they are all biased and narrow-minded.

2)As an appendage to point #1: The onus should be on low carbers to substantiate their claims and provide blind, peer-reviewed, carefully controlled research of the long term safety and efficacy of the diet. Thus far, the only thing they have proven is that the diet produces short-term weight loss. Show me a five year, ten year, twelve-year study that demonstrates long-term weight loss success, lower heart disease risk factors (LDL cholesterol, abdominal adiposity, triglycerides, C-reactive protein, homocystine, etc). Atkins and his successors have had plenty of opportunity to do so since 1972. This glibly leads me into point #3

3)What do you define as “works”? In the case of Atkins, it seems as though success is measured primarily by the scale weight. Very intuitive of him as losing scale weight through water and carbohydrate loss is expected. Further weight loss is due to a reduction of TOTAL CALORIES, not eliminating “fattening” carbs.

Low carber response: You are ignorant and you should be shot. I eat way more than I ever did with the evil low fat/high carb eating!
My rebuttal: Probably not – ketosis causes a loss of appetite, and eliminating an entire food group will make it very difficult to eat excess calories. I give Dr. A credit here – the man had some good foresight.

4)The entire premise (carbs are making us fat) is flawed: Consider that in the past 20 years, the caloric intake for every man, women and child has increased by over 400 Kcals. Yes, many of them were simple carbs in the form of high fructose corn syrup (which does have an effect on fat accumulation). But as I mentioned before, I agree with you there. Cutting out any whole grain is asinine and completely unnecessary. Whole grain consumption has been shown to; Lower high cholesterol, lower high blood pressure, lower blood insulin levels and reduce body fat (Framingham Heart Study – the world’s largest study of heart disease, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition). Including smaller amounts of refined grains and sugar once in a while in the diet should be enough to help curb cravings and not impact fat loss whatsoever. The word “carbs” should never be used unless preceded by the words “good” or “bad”

Low carber response: No – Atkins told us all that carbs are all wrong, and we believe him.

5)Restricting that many fruits and whole grains makes it almost impossible to get all the necessary vitamins, minerals and especially phytochemicals: It’s no coincidence that Atkins Nutritionals sells expensive supplements to be used with his diet. But it is impossible to reproduce the effects of phytochemicals (that only come from plants) in a pill. Plus, even on the maintenance phase of the diet, it is still low in fiber and high in saturated fat.

6)Healthy Populations Eat Carbs: The idea that a high carb diet is responsible for obesity and illness (a concept supported by low carb plans) is completely contradicted by many population-based studies. For instance, in Japan, carbohydrates compose the overwhelming majority of daily caloric intake. High carb foods like grains, rice, and vegetables are daily staples of Japanese life, and intake of high protein, high fat animal products is minimal. In contrast to the reported "evils" of carbohydrates touted by low carb plans, Japan has one of the lowest rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes in the world. Enough said.


7)Atkins: Flawed and misleading studies: The research says the Atkins Diet makes people sick. The most recent study paid for by the Robert C. Atkins Foundation found three of the 59 participants in the Atkins group dropped out; 2 because of a rise in LDL-cholesterol and one because of shakiness and uneasiness. Many troublesome problems occurred frequently in the low-carbohydrate diet (Atkins) group. (From Atkins own study)

Symptom (% of patients complaining)

Constipation (68%)
Headache (60%)
Halitosis (38%)
Muscle cramps (35%)
General weakness (25%)
Diarrhea (23%)
Rash (13%)

Further, overly favourable Atkins studies, including two recent, prominent studies were funded by the Atkins foundation (University of Duke and UConn)
Plus the website features “independent scientific studies” that have, as they say, “consistently and repeatedly vindicated” the Atkins diet. But, 5 of these 18 studies are just unpublished abstracts. Another 6 are either solely funded by the Atkins foundation or written by co-authors of other studies solely funded by Atkins. And, according to the New England Journal of Medicine (May 2000), this is a conflict of interest, since “the boundaries get blurred” and the sponsor always tends to get the results they want and pay for.

8)Exercise is the number one factor when it comes to body fat management and long term success. A strictly controlled carb diet does not allow for optimal fueling of the muscles during exercise and results in a lowered exercise capacity.

9)Increasing daily exercise should be the primary goal – rather than “weight loss”. By increasing activity levels, even if you don’t notice a major difference is scale weight, you can drastically reduce coronary risk factors. People who exercise regularly can enjoy a variety of foods (including pasta, potatoes, etc.) and do not have to worry about counting carbs. This will also improve insulin sensitivity, and increase the production of fat-burning hormones, enzymes and neurotransmitters. I believe that people can achieve optimal health by eating outside the confines of the traditional food guide pyramid, but I think low carb has gone to too much of an extreme. I agree with regular consumption of healthy fats such as omega-3’s and monounsaturated fats. I also believe that one can consume up to 2g/kg of protein safely (lean sources are best).


This is all for now – if I think of anything else (and if I don’t get kicked off this board) I would be happy to contribute some more thoughts.

Oh, and God Bless you, Lauren L – very courageous. It is unfortunate that people are callous enough to call you a liar.

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO, Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S. A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity. N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2082-90.

Stern L, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams M, Gracely EJ, Samaha FF. The Effects of Low-Carbohydrate versus Conventional Weight Loss Diets in Severely Obese Adults: One-Year Follow-up of a Randomized Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):778-785.

Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T, Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L. A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity. N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.

Yancy WS Jr, Olsen MK, Guyton JR, Bakst RP, Westman EC. A Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Fat Diet To Treat Obesity and Hyperlipidemia: A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):769-777.

Brehm BJ, Seeley RJ, Daniels SR, D'Alessio DA. A randomized trial comparing a very low carbohydrate diet and a calorie-restricted low fat diet on body weight and cardiovascular risk factors in healthy women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Apr;88(4):1617-23.

Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Kraemer WJ, Volek JS. Very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets affect fasting lipids and postprandial lipemia differently in overweight men. J Nutr. 2004 Apr;134(4):880-5.

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ. An isoenergetic very low carbohydrate diet improves serum HDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations, the total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol ratio and postprandial pipemic responses compared with a low fat diet in normal weight, normolipidemic women. J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2756-61.

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, DiPasquale C, Roti M, Pumerantz A, Kraemer WJ. Comparison of a very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diet on fasting lipids, LDL subclasses, insulin resistance, and postprandial lipemic responses in overweight women. J Am Coll Nutr. 2004 Apr;23(2):177-84.

Sondike SB, Copperman N, Jacobson MS. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor in overweight adolescents. J Pediatr. 2003 Mar;142(3):253-8.

Westman EC, Yancy WS, Edman JS, Tomlin KF, Perkins CE. Effect of 6-month adherence to a very low carbohydrate diet program. Am J Med. 2002 Jul;113(1):30-6.

Sharman MJ, Kraemer WJ, Love DM, Avery NG, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Volek JS. A ketogenic diet favorably affects serum biomarkers for cardiovascular disease in normal-weight men. J Nutr. 2002 Jul;132(7):1879-85.

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Love DM, Avery NG, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ. Body composition and hormonal responses to a carbohydrate-restricted diet. Metabolism. 2002 Jul;51(7):864-70.

Volek JS, Gomez AL, Kraemer WJ. Fasting lipoprotein and postprandial triacylglycerol responses to a low-carbohydrate diet supplemented with n-3 fatty acids. J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Jun;19(3):383-91.

Kwiterovich PO Jr, Vining EP, Pyzik P, Skolasky R Jr, Freeman JM. Effect of a high-fat ketogenic diet on plasma levels of lipids, lipoproteins, and apolipoproteins in children. JAMA. 2003 Aug 20;290(7):912-20.
Alford BB, Blankenship AC, Hagen RD. The effects of variations in carbohydrate, protein, and fat content of the diet upon weight loss, blood values, and nutrient intake of adult obese women. J Am Diet Assoc. 1990 Apr;90(4):534-40.

Gutierrez M, Akhavan M, Jovanovic L, Peterson CM. Utility of a short-term 25% carbohydrate diet on improving glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. J Am Coll Nutr. 1998 Dec;17(6):595-600.

Hays JH, DiSabatino A, Gorman RT, Vincent S, Stillabower ME. Effect of a high saturated fat and no-starch diet on serum lipid subfractions in patients with documented atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease.
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1 Larosa JC, Fry AG, Muesing R, Rosing DR. Effects of high-protein, low-carbohydrate dieting on plasma lipoproteins and body weight. J Am Diet Assoc. 1980 Sep;77(3):264-70.

Heart Disease, Alternative Medicine Digest, Burton Godlberg Group, 1998

Reclaim Your Health, David & Anne Frahm, Penguin Putnam

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The Healing Power of Foods, Michael Murray, N.D. Prima Pub. 1993
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Health Eating for Healthy Joints, Mark Occhipinti, M.S., Ph.D., N.D. [candidate] Vermilion Press. 1999

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1) Registered dieticians education is quite different from scientists. You show too much faith in RD's word, but you might want to read some biochemistry. You're essentially saying policy is more important than science!

2) Have you actually read the citations you have listed? Most of them don't support such RD's views.

3) Are there any long term research and studies in support of high-carb, low-fat diets?

The onus would be on low-fat, high-carb diets to show long term studies, since they are the ones introducing new changes to the historical human diet.

Why should low-carb diets introduce research to disprove the theories of the 70's political decisions?

4) Don't trust PETA/PCRM research blindly, even the Anti- low carb medical establishment have discredited it, for obvious reasons.

Wa'il

I think the answer you're looking for lies in human evolutionary biology. Current nutritional science (and most of the people on this forum) has yet to acknowledge its existence.

You want a long-term study? How about 3.5 million years long? Long enough for you?

I take exception to the answers you posted that low carbers would give.

You have written these answers as if they were coming from some mindless morons.

I find your post to be arrogant and insulting. I resent your negative aspersions on Dr.Atkins.

I hope that you are not kicked off the board. I want my enemies out in the open where I can do proper battle!

Eddie

This thread is funny.

Personally, I don't really understand this section of the boards, either. Why do low-fat believers CARE what we think and why do they feel the need to argue with us about it? I've never once gone to a low-fat-dieting support site to heckle.

Eat and let eat, as far as I'm concerned.

theanswer, if you've been lurking around here for a few weeks as you say you would have noticed the numerous rebuttals to the each point you make. Don't confine yourself to this area of the boards, go over to the "Research and media" forum and check it out, you'll have your answers.

You list this set of symptoms


Constipation (68%)
Headache (60%)
Halitosis (38%)
Muscle cramps (35%)
General weakness (25%)
Diarrhea (23%)
Rash (13%)

I had none of these, in fact the usual constipation at the time of my periods has stopped, ok halitosis but that is due to the fact I love garlic the more the better so sometime i have garlic breath. Rash? what rash. As for eating less fruit I am eating more than I ever did with a wider variety.

Are all low carb programs the same??? I think not- I enjoy fruits, whole grain cereal/bread, vegetables and lean meat/poultry/fish. Very simple, nourishing food without a lot of "junk". I feel better, my lipid #'s are lower, and have not had any of the symptons reported.

And this proves that there is a problem with low carb or that it is somehow wrong how? With 7 billion people on the planet, you are bound to find a variety of opposing opinions on virtually any subject. Personally, I find the War Zone entertaining, especially when people with an agenda show up (some registering repeatedly under various names) to "save" us from our folly as if low carbers aren't intelligent enough to figure out whether their program is safe and effective for them or not.



I'm sure that there are a few dieticians out there who are open minded to new approaches, however the ones that I've run into are closed minded and biased in favor of a low fat/high carb approach regardless of the situation that the patient presents with refusing to consider any approach but the one that they were schooled in. The fact that you may know a few dieticians that are not as closed minded or biased does not prove that the majority are the same.
As for Susan Kleiner, I should point out that her approach is geared to towards serious athletes and body builders, not many of whom you will find here attempting to lose weight and with her recommendation that no more than 5% of daily calories need to come from fat, her approach is either high carb, high protein or both. http://www.maxsportsmag.com/fatloss/issue13/13fl3.htm



Nope. What I, and many others here, define as "works" is not only weight loss (wow...70+ pounds of water...I need to be written up in some medical journal if my losses have been nothing but water!) is the lessening or total elimination of health problems experienced while following the recommended high carb food pyramid including diabetes, chronic fatigue, hypertension, IBS, Gastric reflux, etc...
Even after 3+ years on low carb, my blood work demonstrates nothing but improvement across the board with no hint of liver or kidney problems and an A1c that went from 11.8 (on the dieticians, diet) to 5.2 currently. I'd say that qualifies as a program that "works". And yes, I can eat more calories on low carb than I did on low fat/high carb and still lose weight. Did you miss the study where the low carb group was able to consume 300 more calories per day than the high carb group and still lose more weight?
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=142867



I think we've been around this bush before. Unless grains are vitamin fortified, they are not the nutritional panacea that they are made out to be and pale in comparison, nutrition-wise, to the variety of vegetables and fruits (yes, fruits) that low carbers are encouraged to incorporate into their daily menus. There is no substance found in grains that cannot be gotten, usually in far greater abundance, from vegetables and fruits and so, yes, they are unnecessary for good health. Even so, nowhere has Dr. Atkins recommended permanently cutting whole grains from the diet unless a person has a sensitivity or allergy to them. There is no food group that is totally eliminated on a permanent basis from any low carb program unless you consider refined white flour, high fructose corn syrup or sugar to be a food group.
All diets for the purpose of weight loss cut something or greatly limit it whether it be fat, protein or carbs so your point about "cutting" foods from the diet is rather pointless and inaccurate.

.

See my reponse above and please provide scientific evidence for your statement. Also, please clarify whether you are addressing induction levels of carbs (which one stays at for 2 weeks on Atkins and many other low carb plans never require) or another level.
Also, please list fruits (along with their nutritional values) that provide vitamins and minerals that cannot be gotten from another vegetable source. I think you'll be searching for a while, though, because there are none.



I think you'd better check your sources (and their age) again. Currently, Asia (specifically India and China) are leading the world in new cases of diabetes being diagnosed yearly. Stroke rates are higher and they also have a higher incidence of certain cancers (pancreas, stomach, esophogus). Obesity rates are also climbing in nearly all parts of Asia.
http://www.cancer.ca/ccs/internet/s...ngId-en,00.html
http://www.idf.org/e-atlas/home/index.cfm?node=104
Japan is known for developing Kobe beef, the fattiest beef on the planet and in many parts of Japan and China, lard is the preferred oil for cooking.
Also, in Asian countries the concept of "free time" has been virtually uknown and unheard of and their physical exertion on a daily basis through work, walking or biking wherever they need to go and just trying to survive (in rural areas) is much higher. Even Dr. Atkins stated that if you want to incorporate more carbs into your daily menus, you need to move your body more. No mystery there. Oh...and the vegetables most commonly consumed....low carb (mushrooms, cabbage, bok choy, bean sprouts, etc...).

7) (I won't even bother to quote it). For years, Dr. Atkins was criticized for not funding studies. When he did, he was criticized for funding them. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Second, what you failed to note is that nearly every symptom that you listed occurred within the first week and dissipated after that. Drug addicts who are drying out experience unpleasant symptoms also. Should that be used as an argument that addicts should remain addicted simply because removing the addictive substance is unpleasant? And before you argue that we aren't addicts drying out, I'd like to point out that sugar IS an addictive substance (and all digetstible carbs are metabolised to glucose in the body) in that it fits the critera for an addictive substance; it alters brain chemistry, there is increasing tolerance for use, when you withdraw it from consumption there are withdrawal symptoms and cravings for it.

8 and 9) (Again, I won't bother to quote it). Nowhere did Dr. Atkins say that regular excercise should NOT be part of a weight loss regimen, or did you miss the entire chapter of the book titled, "Exercise, it's not optional".
A strictly carb controlled diet is sufficient for all but the most strenuous levels of exercise. Even at 30 grams of carb per day, I have no problem completing a 30 minute workout or walking a couple of miles per day at a rate of 3 mph which is a sufficient level of exercise to provide the benefits you quote. If a person is going to engage in strenous cardio or weight training, they may require more carbs which is why the Atkins program after induction can be tailored to the individual's tolerance and requirements. There have also been at least 2 studies that demonstrate that atheltes perform better on a high fat regimen than they do on a high carb one and one Rugby team recently proved that by training for an winning the England Rugby cup on a low carb regimen. I'd say they're pleased with the team's performance.
Again...a non-argument.

Thanks for providing, once again, an opportunity to debunk the idea that low carbers are doomed to a life of poor health if they incorporate low carb as a lifestyle.

That was an excellent rebuttal, Lisa. Thank you.

Karen D.

Lisa,

Do you have a reference handy for these two studies and the Rugby team?

Good bet that theanswer won't be back. He threw out ignorant generalizations, and got facts in return. He won't engage in a point by point rebuttal to Lisa, because he knows he cannot win one.

A quite interesting troll, but honestly - why get sucked in?

Atta girl Lisa!!!! I was recently diagnosed as a Diabetic, I was referred to an RD and was instructed to low carb. I'm gonna follow what she tells me, she's educated, and is in a position where she is "up to date". She probably saved my life.