DAY 21 August 5, 2012
Weight 151 (At least there is a bit of a change here.)
Glucose 94
Ketones .2* (Not yet)

1412 Calories
23 g carbs (11 net)
69 g protein
120 g fat


* I walked today and ate breakfast so I decided to test before I left. It was one hour after coffee w/HWC and 1 Tbs coconut oil. The coconut oil does not seem to be influencing or producing ketones. It also seems that the later during the day I test, the higher the ketones.

Good for you Zei, for being pro-active in your health. I am now not a type 2 diabetic anymore and it is because of the way I eat.

DAY 22 August 6, 2012
Weight 150.8 (good to see again…)
Glucose 78
Ketones .9*

(The below is a guestimate as we made a yummy curry w/leftovers and I did not measure it all)
1552 Calories
37 g carbs (27 net)
81 g protein
123 g fat

Wondering if I am close to NK as my mouth is dry this morning.
*It took four days of VLC and low protein but I am in NK again. I thought I was here, my mouth and the back of my throat are dry, like before and that was before my coffee and coconut oil. If the coconut oil is helping get me here faster, then hurrah!
I am eating 'lunch' early today as I am hungry. I am going to eat normally for now, still testing and posting (when I can as I do have two short trips planned) as I have about 30 more strips to use.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

They give coconut oil or MCT oil to kids with epilepsy specifically to boost their ketones. It seems very unlikely that it doesn't affect your NK. What we don't know is how quickly it does it.

I understand how and why it is used Nancy. It has been used for many 'brain related' medical reasons. And I am now wondering if it really does create a higher NK level, why we should not suggest that everyone on low carb or similar ways of eating, not take it as much as possible. I am happy to be in NK no matter what gets me here!

I really do not think not having coconut oil for one morning, would be a good test. I don't think I am a good control for that that now that I am in NK. I would have to carb up again, and then not have any coconut oil, only butter and olive oil to test the number of days to get back here again, and I am not willing to do that.

Because just producing ketones isn't the goal of a low carb diet, burning body fat is. It's great for epilepsy because it is a fuel source the brain can use better than glucose, but for weight loss you want to have those ketones come from body fat.

The ketone readings are, ideally, supposed to show how you're burning body fat... if you're boosting them with MCT then you're kind of defeating the purpose of all the testing IMHO. You're confounding dietary ketones with body fat ketones.

Any time I've used CO it hasn't helped my weight loss, probably because it's 120 calories per Tbl more than I would've had otherwise.

That's why I think just boosting ketones for the sake of weight loss isn't really all that useful, but I haven't read the Phinney book yet, maybe he says something else.

In the interview he does say some portion of the 85% calories from fat comes from stored fat, not dietary fat.

My opinion, of course. Do what makes you happy.

I'll be running my own experiments at some point.

I am in the process of reading Phinney's books. And I have been following this thread with great interest. Thank you Aradasky for doing what you are doing. I am hoping to be able to do my own testing after I finish the book. If it's OK I'd like to say that I agree with what Nancy is saying about the CO. You are probably including the ketones from the CO along with the ones from your own body fat, making your readings higher.

This is what I've been wondering about too. Being in ketosis means you're burning fat. But I'm eating lots of fat. I'd like to burn body fat. If I'm supplying enough fat in my diet to meet my needs, will that stop me using body fat? Or will this diet somehow alter my hormone levels or something so that stored fat becomes available and my appetite decreases?

Certainly my appetite has decreased somewhat, so maybe that's what's happening. I guess I'm just not really clear on the mechanism. Maybe I should get the book, but I could tell from the one quote someone posted here that it's not going to be easy for someone without the chemistry background.

This is how I'm understanding the process at this point: Lowering the protein level lowers insulin, because at higher levels of protein consumption the body will convert protein to glucose, triggering an insulin response. Lowing insulin will allow my body to release stored fat for use. Is that anywhere close to right?

So presumably when all that stored fat comes pouring out into my blood stream, I won't be very hungry - and then ... what? ... I should maintain the same levels of carb and protein but reduce dietary fat because some of my needs will be supplied by body fat.

If that's so, can I force the issue by lowering dietary fat now? But every time I've done that in the past, I've ended up ravenously hungry and gone on a binge within days. A carb binge. Was I consuming too much protein those other times I lowered fat?

But is that necessarily bad? Maybe it's helpful? Maybe benign? Like Arlene I put coconut oil in my coffee every morning and have done for years. And like Nancy I've never lost a ounce of weight from the practice.

If it's not going to interfere with the weight loss, I'll continue my coconut oil consumption.

I wish the damned test strips weren't so expensive or I'd test before and after my morning coffee with and without coconut oil a few times.

The interview I saw of Phinney, he suggested that you don't replace all your calories. Some of the calories from fat come from stored body fat. He cited the example of eating 15% of calories from protein, 80+% as fat, but suggested that some of the fat calories come from stored fat.

I think, from the interview again, it isn't necessarily that the excess protein is getting converted to glucose, but that protein in and of itself raises insulin, and lots of protein raises it a lot. And yes, having high insulin levels keeps fat stuck in fat cells.

The dietary fat is usually long chain fatty acids which have to be converted to get burned, so it won't be reflected right away.
I suppose there's no real difference between dietary fat and stored fat since it all cycles in and out of cells all the time.

But in the case of CO, it's like dietary ketones.


This I can't answer.

It may not interfere with weight loss, but if the purpose of testing is to see if you are truly in ketosis, the CO may be raising the ketone reading and confusing the situation. Your ketones reading may indicate that you are in ketosis but you're really not and may need to lower the carbs or protein.

I see. I think I'll stop my coconut oil for a while just to be sure. Assuming I remember not to dump it in my coffee when I'm stumbling around the kitchen half asleep tomorrow morning. Maybe I should move it somewhere else tonight so I won't add it while on automatic pilot.

That's interesting. I didn't hear that part, and I did listen to the interview. I guess for now I'll just carry on. I suppose, like gravity, you don't have to actually understand it for it to work.

The first book I read about coconut oil was
Coconut Cures by Bruce Fife, N.D.
I was looking for something to help my daughter with her thyroid problems and this was recommended.
It mentions the coconut diet in his book Eat Fat Look Thin. This started my journey on this Low Carb WOE. I have never looked back. I started my coconut oil before I even started Induction.

I think that coconut oil compliments the body and HELPS it produce ketones that use the body fat for energy, therefore if it Helps you get into NK, then hurrah. I don't think there is a difference. If you are in NK but still eating too many calories, even too much coconut oil, then you will not lose weight.

I found the following discussion in Jimmy Moore's blog from last year. It puts what basically the Bruce Fife books say into a short version.

Even here, however, one goal is to lower calories to lose weight and coconut oil does that very well for me by easing my hunger.
If this is hard to read, please follow the URL and see it there.
Arlene



Coconut Oil and Ketosis http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.c...ad.php?tid=6774

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Coconut Oil and Ketosis - Piano Man - 10-06-2011 08:27 PM

Hello all!
I just finished day 14 of my "quasi-induction" phase. I call it "quasi-induction" since my carb intake was upwards toward 50 grams a day. I started measuring ketones in the morning on day 10 and have continued to measure in the 30-60 mg/dL range every morning since.
I was reading Dr. Newport's blog on coconut oil. She was stating that the liver converts coconut oil into ketones very readily (almost sounds like what happens when carbs convert to sugar). From reading her material, this ketone production seems to be from the coconut oil itself rather than dietary ketosis that is obtained on a very low carb diet. Right now I do about a tablespoon of coconut oil a day (doing the coffee thing - an acquired taste I must admit).
Question: How does one tell the difference between the presence of ketones from coconut oil vs. ketones from being in induction/ketosis?

As an aside, I did an n=1 diet study on myself. 2 months on a USDA recommended high carb low fat diet:
HDL=26; Triglycerides=350

This is my next n=1 diet study. 2 months on a low carb, ketogenic (hopefully) diet. Bloodwork coming next month.

Any light you can shed on the ketones vs. ketosis question I've raised will be appreciated!
++

RE: Coconut Oil and Ketosis - tedhutchinson - 10-07-2011 10:36 AM

(10-06-2011 08:27 PM)

Quote:

Piano Man Wrote: Question: How does one tell the difference between the presence of ketones from coconut oil vs. ketones from being in induction/ketosis?

Jimmy's take on Ketostix
I don't think there is any way to tell the difference.
Similarly I think it's possible to be in ketosis and not see a change in stick colour. I no longer bother to measure ketones. (dropped the full box down the loo while trying to test midflow and they don't work well after they've been soaked.)

I just use coconut oil to fry my breakfast and in cooking generally to replace other cooking fats/oils.
++

RE: Coconut Oil and Ketosis - Nancan - 10-07-2011 02:20 PM

Ketones are a by product of burning stored fat, not any particular fat you eat. You have to lower carbs enough that your body must turn to stored fat for energy. Aslo, you can be in mild ketosis and not show much if anything on the Ketostix if you drink a lot of liquids.
++

RE: Coconut Oil and Ketosis - tedhutchinson - 10-07-2011 02:42 PM

(10-07-2011 02:20 PM)

Quote:

Nancan Wrote: You have to lower carbs enough that your body must turn to stored fat for energy

.
I think you may be wrong about this when it comes to Coconut oil that has a high percentage of MCT Medium Chain Triglycerides. You can see from the diagram below how MCT takes a short cut route so is not sent to storage while glucose is being burnt. This is why I keep saying get onto Coconut oil BEFORE you start induction so you've got the system used to burning fat.

New Insights into the Utilization of Medium-Chain Triglycerides

Fig. 1. (THIS IS A FIGURE, BUT WAS NOT ABLE TO GET IN IN HERE, AR)
Metabolism of medium- and long-chain triglycerides and fatty acids by intestine, liver and adipose tissue. Abbreviations are defined within the figure. In contrast to LCT, MCT are more rapidly digested, and the resulting MCFA are more rapidly absorbed via portal circulation than the corresponding LCFA which are re-esterified and packaged into chylomicrons for lymphatic absorption. Furthermore, MCFA are predominantly oxidized, whereas LCFA may be directly deposited into adipose triglyceride stores. (Adapted from Greenberger and Skillman 1969.)

RE: Coconut Oil and Ketosis - Piano Man - 10-07-2011 09:00 PM

(10-07-2011 02:42 PM)

Thanks Ted. You've confirmed what I was interpreting about an MCFA like coconut oil converting to ketones very readily. I like your idea of introducing coconut oil before induction. It makes sense; getting the body use to the presence of ketones might make going into ketosis a more efficient process.

Another thought (question): Where would the balancing act be? The body is now using ketones from the CO, but in ketosis, I want the body to use ketones made from stored bodyfat. Should one discontinue CO after successfully reaching ketosis and let the body burn ketones from bodyfat exclusively? It would seem that "overdosing" on the CO might put one in the state where, yes, you are in ketosis, but you are only burning ketones from the CO, not from bodyfat.

RE: Coconut Oil and Ketosis - tedhutchinson - 10-08-2011 04:42 AM

(10-07-2011 09:00 PM)
Good question and I see your point.
I find that by using coconut oil as my main source of cooking fat/oil (along with butter and olive oil) my appetite is under control so I easily reach satiety and no long get food cravings so it's much easier to reduce calorie intake and reducing calorie intake allows your body to use stored calories naturally.
Medium chain triglyerides also accelerate diet-induced thermogenesis in humans so the coconut oil should also be helping your brown adipose tissue burn use surplus calories by adjusting body temperature as you sleep. Green Tea, Vitamin D, resveratrol also assist thermogenesis.

RE: Coconut Oil and Ketosis - Piano Man - 10-08-2011 03:17 PM

(10-08-2011 04:42 AM)

Interesting stuff! Now that I am definitely in ketosis, I have to say that all of the horror stories I heard about it were somewhat unfounded. I experienced a few mental shifts, headaches, cramps on a couple of occasions, but nothing so severe that I would say it's a bad thing. Bloodwork to come in about 4 weeks; I'll post a before and after. I tested my blood sugar this morning and tested at 87 (down from 102).
Thanks for the dialogue Ted!

PS .I know my body temp is higher, I sleep hotter and have flushes much like Hot flashes, but different. I do not need a jacket when others are bundled up.