This was a great read... and sorry to resurrect an old thread but I just couldn't help it.

There is ZERO doubt in my mind that PETA does more harm than good. Whether or not they kill animals and whether or not they use creative editing on their videos isn't as important to me as this: people don't want to be told what to do. Obviously. I mean, it's why most of us are here (you called me fat when I was a kid dad, well I'll show you, I'll eat ANYTHING I want ). Point being, most people are fairly reasonable and logical and aren't going to become vegans because some chickens are living in shoe boxes in Nebraska. So the message that PETA puts out, while well meaning, gets lost in unrealistic ideology and falls on deaf ears, or even worse, slows progress to a crawl.

BUT, I think what we can ALL agree on, religion and politics aside, is that NOTHING that is living deserves to be tormented and TORTURED. When I see a spider in my house, you KNOW I'm going to kill it. But I'm going to smash it very quickly. I'm not going to spend hours dismantling it piece by piece until it finally succumbs to death.

I wish every time I come across something about PETA, that they would focus on just that... the grey area... life is chocked FULL of grey area... such as being able to efficiently operate factory farms MINUS the unnecessary cruelty that no doubt does go on. It can be done. There is no reason to pick up a piglet by it's hind legs and slam it onto the ground and laugh about it (video I saw a few years ago). There's no reason to cause undue suffering in a world that isn't particularly kind in the first place. There's no reason to tease and poke at and full-on BEAT a cow that's already on it's way to my plate.

I don't care about grass fed. I think it's another trend, like those weird brown eggs that are twice as much as the white ones, lol. But I would like to know that the stuff I'm eating didn't have an unjustifiably horrific existence of beatings and weirdos doing god knows what to them. Look at it this way: all cops are not bad. All cops are not good. All farm workers are not bad. All farm workers are not good. Do you really think that a guy who kicks a pig to death or torments and tortures a calf goes home to his family and reads them bedtime stories and lovingly kisses his wife? No. A piece of garbage is a piece of garbage, no matter his job title or pay scale. There are good people in all jobs, including slaughter house workers... keep hiring those guys, not the half-wits from Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Lastly, I find it VERY hard to believe that anyone who says that animals don't have feelings has an IQ higher than 2. What PLANET are you living on??? Have you been in an underground storage facility your entire life? Have you ever HAD a dog? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice the FEELINGS that a dog has for his owner or the bonds that humans and some animals form. That is a two way street. Your dog isn't an emotionless, "soulless" drone like your Roomba. Anyone that believes that really needs to get their heads examined. It's so frustrating to me that someone who has faith in their religious beliefs (whatever those may be, more power to you) would look at their loyal and unconditionally loving dog and think "You don't have a soul and I know that for a FACT."

Give me a break!!!

Great post, Hank, and I agree with all you said except this. People have been eating grassfed and pastured animals, and eggs from naturally-raised fowl, since the beginning of human existence, so not a trend. The trend is what happened a few decades ago when animals became assembly line products, manufactured under torturous conditions to be unnaturally larger, heavier, and provide a better "cost effective value proposition" for shareholders, then spewed out of factories like metal nuts and bolts. One can but hope that trend will eventually end.

Thanks. What I SHOULD have said is that I personally don't have any ill-effects from eating non-organic meats and eggs. But that's true: before we had factories we had pastures.

I agree; there doesn't need to be cruelty involved with any animal transactions.

While I don't agree with Michael Pollan on everything, his writing on Polyface Farm was excellent, and showed people how it should be done... for ALL of us on the planet.

I also agree, but, from a farmers point of view I also see the factory farming side. Factory farming is important if the grocers are going to keep meet on our tables. But, they could raise the animals in better conditions. Even if a rabbits or chickens cages are a foot longer, better feed kinda thing. Butcharing should be quick, as painless as possible. Oopsies happen, even I've had to pop a rabbit a second time because I didn't get it right the first time. But they should try for better pollicies.

Lets face it, free rainge is a sweet thought but most people aren't going to pay for it. I've considered going into the buisness of free rainge chickens and selling butchared rabbits. But people don't want to pay for the free rainge when they can get the same thing in town for half the price.

Its about supply and demand, and most demand cheap food.

Exactly. I would love to live in a world where everything is what it should be. But I'm not going to pay a gimmicky price for it. This is coming from the guy who lost 30 pounds eating a Spicy Mchicken and a Mcdouble every day for 2 months . $2.14 a day, but low cal so low energy.

I refuse to eat veal- because I know how it is raised. I won't eat lamb because they are cute- I don't eat beef because I am fond of cows- I won't eat pork because I also am quite fond of pigs. I eat fish and fowl. I think chickens and turkeys are cute but I am not as attached and for no reason at all, am fine eating them.

Ultimately I agree- no animal should suffer but I think they do no matter what. They suffer psychological fear- packed into a truck and brought to a slaughter house where they smell blood urine and fear of the animals before them- hearing the others cry in pain or fear-- it's damaging and they do suffer. I grew up around farms and watched the slaughter- not my cup of tea. I feel bad for them and can't bring myself to eat them. They DO have feelings and those feelings DO matter. You beat a dog with a stick- it cries- but it will remain faithful. You feed cows and pigs all day- caring for them- they trust you. They become attached to you at times- how can you slaughter them after that? Just not for me is all

I agree. I don't know how anyone can do it. It's something I have to remove myself from mentally or it gets very depressing to think about. I think the bottom line though is nature, the world, etc isn't a "nice" place. I'm not one of those people that thinks the world is inherently good. I think there's much more bad if you look at things under a microscope. If aliens were offering a ride off this mother... I'd be the first to go. Assuming things would be any different anywhere else, lol.

Very true, but some people are waking up to the falseness; all food is not the same. We low carbers know that very well!

Before low carbing, we would look at a plate of rice, and beans, and a bit of sausage, and say, "Wow, that is so much cheaper than a meal of sausage and eggs."

But after low carbing, we go, "Wow, the rice and beans are so high in carbs! I can't afford that." We start factoring health into our food budget. Those prescription drugs are expensive, too!

Humanely raised, pasture fed, animals are not a gimmicky fad. They are better, in every dimension.

I see encouraging such farming as a better contribution to the planet's welfare than vegetarianism; especially since I can't eat vegetarian without sacrificing my health. Then, there's my cats; they have to eat meat.

I agree with you on all points except I THINK possibly you misunderstood the "religious" position concerning a "soul".

"soul" isn't synonymous with "feelings" at all. My pug has feelings; he's happy, sad, happy to see me, afraid of being in trouble to peeing on the hardwood floor....clearly he has SOME kind of feelings...but it doesn't follow that he has a "soul" in the sense that humans do.

When Christians say that animals don't have a "soul" they mean that they don't have whatever it is that humans have...not that they are "rhoomba's"

But that aside...I agree with what you said.

Hey folks, I realise this is an old thread, recently revived.
Some of you may not have seen my previous warning (post #59), so I'm going to copy it here as a reminder

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Everyone!

Please get back on-topic. Debates about religion, morality, speciesism, evolution etc aren't welcome here.

Folks may wish to review our policy Why politics, religion and other contentious debates are not permitted at Active Low-Carber Forums, especially this part ..

Thanks for your cooperation in this matter


Doreen

No problem. but just to be clear, I wasn't debating...I was trying to clarify something that I think was a misunderstanding.