This is only my opinion!!!!!

Though carb allergy and carb addiction produce the same results, an uncontrollable appetite for carbs and binging, the two conditions are not alike in their causes, physical reactions and necessary treatments.

Carb allergy is a food allergy to a particular class of carbs, i.e. grains, sugars. It is like other food allergies such as dairy and yeast producing foods in that eating the food can cause a reactive increased appetite for that particular food allergen. Carb allergists' physical results, unlike those of a carb addict, can result in bloating, water retension, swollen joints, gas, diarhea, vomiting, mental fogginess and disorientation, skin eruptions and flu like symptoms. As you can see these are all negative symptoms and can make you feel very ill. Low carb diets other than CAD are the appropriate treatment for this condition as they eliminate, minimize exposure to allergens. Generally, carb allergists don't react this way to carb vegetables and fake sugars.
So, yes, carb allergists can not control themselves at a Reward Meal. They are reacting to a food allergen!

On the other hand, carb addicts react to carbs as a group and can have a reaction, yes, to grains and sugars but also to carb vegetables, even broccoli! , and fake sugars. A carb addict's physical results, unlike those of the carb allegist, include pleasure and a sense of satisfaction and not the negative physical ones above. In addition, the carb addict can feel sleepy, lethargic and drugged. But that is the point. Carbohydrates are a drug to the carbohydrate addict. Think of a heroin addict. He gets a high when using the drug but as time goes on the pleasure period gets shorter and requires higher doses and more frequent applications to attain. The same is true of a carb addict, except where the heroin addict cycles over a period of time, the carb addict cycles many times in a day. In fact every time he/she eats or eats carbs.

So you can see that you have physical reactions, i.e. craving and binging, that are the same in both cases but their underlying causes and treatments are very different. Put a carb allergist on CAD and it won't work for them. At the same time, putting a carb addict on Atkins, other than the induction phase, or one of the more moderate low carb plans won't work for them either.

I think one of the determining factors in answering the question "Carb allergy or carb addict?" is the person in question's reaction to fake sugars and sugar alcohols. Consuming fake sugars and sugar alcohols seem to bother only "true" carb addicts (my feeling ). A "true" carb addict reacts to anything carb or carb tasting, while carb allergists react only to their specific allergen(s). Another sign of a carb addict is an increased appetite or carb craving resulting from eating more than four times a day.

Update

I am rather curious as to how you came to this conclusion. What is so different between Atkin's induction and Atkin's OWL, that makes it not work.

According to the Hellers, when you spread carbs throughout the day or eat more than 4 times a day, in a Carbohydrate Addict (CA), this causes multiple and recurring insulin surges and carb cravings.

Also there are trigger/higher carb foods that are allowed on the other lc plans that are not allowed on CAD/CALP at other than the Reward Meal because they can cause increased appetite/cravings, i.e. broccoli, avocados, nuts, low GI fruits, AS (more than 3/day), sugarless gum, coffee with cream throughout the day. Therefore, when you get off induction and start adding back in some of the carbier vegetables or other than allowed CAD/CALP foods and spreading them throughout the day, you (CA) cause increased hunger/cravings and accompanying weight stall/gain. You (CA) find you have the need to eat every two hours and are often hungry and unsatisfied.

Many CAs on CAD/CALP only eat 2-3 times a day. Once their insulin is under control, they just are not hungry more often.

That didn't really answer my question.

Why do you say Atkin's induction works but the later stages do not? During induction you eat carbs all day long....same as during OWL. Some Atkin's followers stay around 30 carbs a day during OWL. Are you saying 30 carbs as opposed to 20 carbs a day doesn't work?

I think this needs to be more specific as to number of carbs one eats as to just making a blanket statement that anything but Atkin's induction doesn't work for a carb addict. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't know many people following Atkin's that needs to eat every couple of hours. We tend to find more people than not lose their appietite and barely eat one or two meals a day.

I would really love to see your research numbers on this. Like how many people that are on Atkin's that you have followed for 6 months or more, as opposed to people on CAD for 6 months or more and do a comparison on the two groups.

Dear Agonycat

I have to reply to the below statement and let you know of my experience with Atkins.

I don't know many people following Atkin's that needs to eat every couple of hours. We tend to find more people than not lose their appietite and barely eat one or two meals a day.

I agree that I did not need to eat every couple of hours, but must disagree about those on Atkins being able to eat barely one or two meals a day.

I had 3 meals aday while on atkins and snacks of nuts and low carb foods too - I just made sure I stayed within my allowed carbs.

I have to say I found that WOE very restrictive and I did try it out for at least 6 months. Because of this I would often crave foods I should not have and this is why I have converted over to CAD.

I still do occasionally have my moments - but in the end - I'm a severe CA and will lapse from time to time.

I hope you do not mind my comments.

Tigra, I don't mind your comments at all.

Notice I did not say everyone on Atkin's? Everyone is different after all. I have yet to find anyone following the Atkin's diet having to or feeling the need to, eat every 2 hours as Zule would lead people to believe though. Mostly the hunger drops off.

If CAD suits your lifestyle that is fantastic and I am very happy you found something that does work for you personally For me CAD didn't work. Mainly because the reward meal triggered me wanting to eat more carbs.


It just really concerns me about false information being spread. Or assumptions being made without any real hard core research at hand. I have read the CAD books and I don't EVER recall Heller's stating that Atkin's past induction doesn't work for people. I really believe it is an individual thing based on how carbs effect a person's metabolism.

Is "allowing yourself to lapse" from time to time a CAD thing? Or is that just a person choice?

First of all AgonyCat, if you read the very first words from Zuleikaa's post, it says:



and you replied with:



She couldn't possible be spreading false information if her post was her opinion.



Secondly,

I understand completely why some Atkins people might have a hard time after induction because if you are snacking on nuts, your body releases insulin for those carbs. If you are a true carb addict, that release of insulin affects your cravings.

While I have not been on a low-carb woe very long, after my inital drop in weight I started doing a lot of research on WHY it is working when nothing else did. I reviewed ALL of the plans out there, and searched and read through an unbelievable amount of posts and journals from multiple lowcarb forums. While this by no means makes me an expert on the subject, I feel I have a pretty good grasp on what is going on.

I found that a lot of the people who stall for a long period of time on Atkins are stalling because of a carbohydrate addiction. Those snacks that they eat in between (and MOST of them do report having some kind of carb, whether it be small or medium amount, ie. nuts) are what is stalling them. SAME with the sugar substitutes.

They have insulin resistance still, and their body will continue to store fat because of the continuing release of insulin. THey may even gain a pound or two.

MY PERSONAL OPINION on why carbohydrate ADDICTS have a hard time with CAD's Reward Meal is because they are not addicts at all, but are allergic to them. A person's chemistry and biological balance can be thrown off if they have an ALLERGY to the food they are eating. However, if it is an addiction, the Reward Meal should NOT affect them because of how insulin is released.

Your pancreas releases the insuling in two waves, the first is based on your past meals and how much insulin was released during those. On CAD, you are extremely limited so very little amount of insulin is released during RM. The second wave is 60-70 minutes after the first, and it is based on any remaining carbs being eaten during the release. Which is why going even 5 MINUTES over your RM can spell disaster for a carb addict. However, if you are allergic to a carb, it doesnt really matter WHEN you eat those carbs, because it will set of a reaction just from EATING them.

Which is why people who are allergic to carbs need to be on strict low carb diets. Like Atkins. However, people who are addicted to carbs can very easily lose weight and be happy on the CAD because it is SPECIFICALLY for carbohydrate addicts. They are not hungry or craving because of the CARBS it is because of the constant INSULIN release. Allergic people will react the CARBS - the actual food - not the insulin. Which is why they can eat sugar free foods without a reaction. And it is why addicts can NOT.

To me, it sounds like you are allergic to carbs. Which is why you could not handle the RM. Your body can't take the high amount of carbs taken in, and it reacts accordingly. However, if you were an addict, and ate within the hour, the only reason why you would cheat, would be psychological. I know that there has been a few times where I THINK I want something, after my RM, but I know it is in my mind. I can tell when it is a physiological craving when after my RM i feel very lethargic or I get a false hunger a couple hours later. I've only had that once, when I had a few almonds, but forgot to start the hour then, and started eating about 20 minutes later. I basically started my insulin release when I ate the almonds, and by the time I started my actual meal and finished it, it was over an hour and my body understood I was eating high carbs and released a LARGE second wave of insulin. Which in turn gave me the lethargic feeling and hunger afterwards. I have NEVER had that any other time during my RM. That is how I know I am a carb ADDICT.

Again, this is through my studying journals of people who are different low carb plans, and through their own personal posting in the forums.

Essentially, this is my OBSERVATION which allows me to form my OPINION. Since i DO NOT have the resources available to conduct a scientific study, I can not say that this is fact. I do agree with nearly all Zuleikaa has been saying and believe she has done her own research as well, as with personal experience.

I do not see any fallacies here....

I actually think you missed the point of my question.

I realized it was her opinion. I can read and comprehend the english language very well thank you.

I asked how she came to her conclusion that ONLY Atkin's Induction works for the Carb Addict while Atkin's OWL does not. Since both are very similar in the plan, the only difference being the carb levels. Instead of answering that she chose to quote Heller findings, but I do not recall Hellers ever saying Atkin's didn't work.

Making a blanket statement that Atkin's followers eat every 2 hours or more than 4 times a day, is also a false claim as I know very few that eat that much. I simply asked for references, study/research materials that lead her to believe what she wrote. It's not a personal attack on her in anyway. I merely am curious as to what has lead her to her opinion.

She posted her original opinion on Nov 1, and bumped it up just today so everyone could see it one more time. I figured she was wanting someone to debate her on the issues since she keeps bringing it to the top of the forum.



I firmly believe both diets have their followers for various reasons. Neither is right or wrong. Both work for different people. I know plenty of carbohydrate addicts following Atkin's that can not follow CAD, and plenty that can not follow Atkin's that do just fine on CAD. I for one fall into the can't do CAD.

This forum is ment for Low Carbers in general and is not ment as a bashing ground for one diet over another. It is not ment to prove one diet is better than the other. We support each other in one goal and that is to lose weight. It doesn't matter which diet you chose to follow.

I did miss the original point of the question, you are right. I will get to that in a minute.

I'm sorry if you felt that that was an attack on my part, I meant nothing by it.



I just didn't see why that was necessary, since she stated in the beginning that it was her opinion. Perhaps you didn't mean it in the way I took it...

It is also not uncommon for Atkins followers to snack in between meals. It is not uncommon for ANY diet, lowcarb or lowfat. I guess the journals I read through must have been a coincidence, because a lot of them are eating nuts or some other low carb snack in between.

You keep referring to Zuleikaa saying a "blanket statement" that Atkins followers eat every 2-3 hours.



She is saying that that AFTER induction, the carbs that are added back in are triggering reactions in a carbohydrate addict, and in turn, they will feel the need to snack or eat again in a few hours. I believe that this statement above was the answer to your question.

Induction works because you are eating such a low amount of carbs, your insulin never gets very high, even if it is released 4 or 5 times. Remember, the first wave is based on previous meals, and if you have been eating 20 grams or less the entire day, you just aren't getting much insulin in your body period.



It is not really a matter of number of carbs, it is realy a matter of how much insulin is produced from that particular food. If they eat a moderate amount of broccoli, or diet soda, it may cause their (they as in carb addict) insulin to rise and in turn make them hungry or unsatisfied earlier and more frequently. To someone who is allergic to carbs, YES the number of carbs is VERY important. They just can't take in a large amount. Period. THeir body reacts to the CARBS. The actual amount of food. Whereas the addict reacts to the INSULIN. If you want to go into numbers, it would be the glycemic index. The higher the GI number, the more it will affect a carb addict, even if it is a low number of carbohydrate grams.




I am, again, sorry if you took my post as a bashing against anyone or any plan. I personally feel that if you are allergic to carbs, you should definitely NOT be on CAD. And if you are an addict, you probably won't do so well on Atkins.

I am not (nor is Zuleikaa, as far as I've read) attacking Atkins nor any other plan, just posting on why it works for some and doesn't for others.

As I read the the Confession Forum, and see some of the Atkins people stall and continue cheating, I read their journals and see a direct correlation between snacks like sugar substitutes and nutes or alcohol and their hunger and snacking. If this thread was posted in a place that more might see it, they might understand they are they either addicted or allergic to carbs and that might explain why WHATEVER PLAN THEY ARE ON is not working. If we see someone on here that is not doing well, especially during RMs, I know I would most likely suggest that he/she is allergic, and need to be on a stricter low carb plan. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong from switching to Atkins to CAD either.

In her second post:




She makes it sound like people that follow Atkin's eat more meals than CAD followers which isn't true. We both eat pretty much the same amount during the day. I mostly eat 2 meals a day sometimes 3, and very rarely snack. Which is why I said I would love to see her research materials. This is the blanket statement I am refering to. I don't know many Atkin's followers that eat 4 times a day nor every 2 hours. I think this statement alone sends the wrong message to people.

As for the nuts. Well I can't answer that because Atkin's doesn't say in his book eat nuts every day. It's a personal choice. I chose not to eat them mainly because they are too dang salty for my liking.

In the confession booth you find people of all plans falling off the wagon. Protein power, CAD, Atkin's, Sugarbusters. I think there are more Atkin's people due to the fact it is a more publicized and popular diet than CAD.

I think my main point is: Be a little less opinionated and more objective when comparing plans. Like I said it's not which one is wrong. Neither are. It's not which one works better. They both do. It's totally up to the single individual person following the diet, and you can't fault that on the diet itself if it fails. Can we?

Have a pleasant rest of the weekend.

Ahhhh!! I see!

I think that her post might have been misinterpreted.

She is saying that AFTER induction, when you add more of the starchier/carbier vegetables in (like broccoli), and spreading them throughout the day, a carb addict can become hungry and stall. Spreading them throughout the day does not mean eating 6 times, it means, you are eating those carbie veggies or whathaveyou throughout the day, instead of only during one time. Once a carb addict is hungry, he/she can still have the willpower to continue, but with a low carb snack. Usually, if there was too much insulin released because of a higher carb veggie (or other things allowed on Atkins, but not in CAD) than the hunger can come again in a few hours. Meaning they might feel the urge to snack more often. Whether or not they do in Atkins or whatever else plan doesnt matter, it is just that if they are an ADDICT, they might feel hungry in a few hours. THAT generally leads to snacking or cheats, but again, it DOESN'T matter.

When she said that if you eat more than 4 times a day, does not mean 4 meals. I agree with you, most people on MOST of the low carb plans (including Atkins) eat 2-3 MEALS per day. No one will argue that. However, the difference is that with a carb addict, you simply can NOT snack. A simple diet soda can throw a carb addict's day completely off if not had within a specified time.

The nuts are just used as an example. It is a generally low carb snack those a lot of people turn to. I love nuts and if allowed, I would snack on them just cause I love the texture and taste.

I knew I shouldn't have breathed the word Atkins in that paragraph about the Confession booth. I was just saying that if a thread like this was posted in a forum like that, some people might understand why they are not doing well or stalling in a particular plan, whether it be PP or CAD. If you go through their journals, the main reason why they end up cheating are because they felt hungry or had a craving, or the environment they were in (ie lack of planning ahead when going to a wedding, etc). The environment thing is not the diets problem. It is the persons. The hungry or craving IS not a FAULT of the diet. It is merely because some people go into a plan seeing that it has worked for others and is popular and might work for them too. I just hate to see someone stop Low Carbing because ONE plan did not work. I would rather them try a different plan then continue with the frustration of a multiple month long stall. I know what it is like to do everything a diet tells you to do and not lose wieght, or even worse, gain some.

It is all about the individual, and if you are a carb addict, insulin is your problem. If you are allergic to carbs, then the carbs themselves are the problem. I think that most people are ALLERGIC to carbs. Which means that Atkins and other carb counting plans will be VERY benifitial for that person. However, if you are a carb ADDICT, just limiting your carbs won't help. You have to understand HOW your body releases insulin, WHEN it releases insulin, and WHY it releases insulin. If you can control your insulin release, you can control your addiction.

::sigh::

I really feel compelled to be sarcastic, and have rewritten my response to this paragraph about 5 times so far. I will refrain from doing so though...

Let me put it in the NICEST way possible here: If you look at the comparison for the CAD diet on this website, you'll see a note saying that some people have a hard time with the RM, with no explanation of why. I (along with Zuleikaa) am interested in finding out WHY they have a problem, and why some people don't.

I'm also interested in finding out WHY some people stall on Atkins OR ANY OTHER STRICT CARB COUNTING PLAN for 3 to four months and why some people lose weight at a steady pace. There are MANY reasons why that you have already found out, is it impossible that there are more?? Especially since there seems to be SOME people who have really adverse reactions to carbs, but not sugar substitutes and low carb foods. And there are SOME people who do not get adverse reactions, yet still get hungry and lethargic after eating meals, but feel really good while eating them. THERE MUST BE A DIFFERENCE. And since EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, we can not say that the only reason why people on CAD can handle the RM is willpower. It just ISNT SO!

I will never say that Atkins or CAD is better than ANY other plan out there. YOU WILL NEVER SEE ME POST THAT. I completely understand it is not about which is better than the other. However, I do feel that some are better for DIFFERENT people. Not everyone will do well on Atkins, as with not everyone will do better on CAD. PLEASE stop telling me that, as I ALREADY UNDERSTAND. I would care less about addiction vs. allergy if I thought one or the other was better.

Another thing, you said:



YES, we can! Otherwise, why did the low fat diet I was previously on NOT WORK FOR ME??????? Should I have stayed on it longer? Should I have thrown away the idea that maybe, JUST MAYBE, I should try a low carb plan, because perhaps, it may WORK FOR ME????? Or should I have taken your advice? And said, no, it is totally up to the single individual person following this diet, and I can not fault my low fat diet itself if I'm not losing weight and always hungry, can I? Or should I?


Listen, I really don't wish to stir things up with you, and to me, your posts are very defensive of the Atkins diet. It is too defensive because no one ever said that Atkins diet was wrong or anything. In fact, no one even said that Atkins followers eat more than 2-3 meals!! Please go through and read them again, (walking on ICE HERE) not because you can not understand the english language or have poor comprehension. But because maybe you misinterpreted something?? Is it possible??

Please, I do not want you to feel like I am attacking you personally, but really, it seems like all Zuleikaa was trying to do was post her opinion on allergy vs. addiction. God forbid she mention the word Atkins ever again. Perhaps she should say, "low carb counting plan"? Technically, CAD could be that as well... please, enlighten us with a term deemed appropriate so that we may avoid using the Atkins plan as an example. If that is what it takes, then seriously, I would appreciate it, because I do not enjoy "run-ins" like this, especially over something so innocent....

Since this isn't a low fat diet board, I would have assumed you would take my statement to refer to low carb diets and not the low fat ones. My mistake.

Anyway....I am unsure why you "feel you are stirring things up with me". Since my questions were directed more towards Zule and not you. You chose to answer on her behalf without really knowing exactly what she was intending when she typed what she did.

Unless of course you are her pretending to be someone else In that case it makes perfect sense.

Other than that it makes for a healthy discussion as long as both sides keep their cool. Which we have and I appriecate you not getting sarcastic with me since this thread nor myself has warranted such behavior.

ttfn

Well, I think I got the gist of things when commented on comparing plans... meaning low carb plans... but it does apply in any sitauation, and does apply here. Just because it is low carb, does not mean it is going to work for everyone. Both you and I agree on that.

A side note: I don't think thepurpose was to compare plans, and I think that is what I have been trying to point out. We are comparing allergy to addiction... A comparison of plans has already been made and if one feels they have an addiction, they would go to an appropriate plan, as would someone who has an allergy to carbs.

I feel a lot of defense coming from you, which is why I said I didn't want to "Stir things up". I don't mean to attack personally and have intentionally tried to avoid such.

I understand your questions were intended towards Zule, but if you were meaning something JUST for her, a private message would have been more appropriate. Excuse me for butting in, I just thought this was a public forum... that's all.

I guess I didn't read her intentions, if they were to bash Atkins, because as someone reading through it, I didn't get that at all. But if you feel that was her intent, than I guess I was out of line and your comment on spreading false information and assumptions was perfectly acceptable.

Now knowing her intent was to bash Atkins, I guess I should not have said anything. I thought she was posting her opinion on carb addiction vs carb allergy, as the title of the post implied.... I am not so good at reading between the lines I guess....