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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Nov-08-17, 16:34
Lesliean Lesliean is offline
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Plan: Rosedale
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Default Ketones in a bottle

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...article/545129/

Brought to You by silicone valley. They’ve now made ketones in a bottle produced in a lab that will bring Ketone levels up to five without ketosis.
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Nov-08-17, 17:02
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Posts: 4,145
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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You can pre-order it, $99 for 3 bottles, that's 3 single servings. I think I'll pass. Exogenous ketones have never seemed like anything I wanted to try. I'll stick with nutritional ketosis. Manufactured highs have never been my thing.

Jean
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Nov-09-17, 02:35
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,397
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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I have gone from ignoring these as Marketing scams to worrying that that rapid popularization and monetizing of anything "Ketogenic" is going to lead to its equally rapid demise after some idiot biohacker dies. Jacking up ketones artificially without compensating low glucose and other adjustments is an unknown.

Speaking of Silicon Valley...a headline yesterday...

"Silicon Valley's favorite diet is now available in a three-day meal kit that costs $210 " !!

http://www.businessinsider.in/theli...st/61566312.cms

Some whiny reporter who found the Diet Just Soooo Hard to do, ultimately realized that $210 was a little pricey for some salmon and almonds.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Nov-09-17, 03:01
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Posts: 4,145
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
I have gone from ignoring these as Marketing scams to worrying that that rapid popularization and monetizing of anything "Ketogenic" is going to lead to its equally rapid demise after some idiot biohacker dies. Jacking up ketones artificially without compensating low glucose and other adjustments is an unknown.

Speaking of Silicon Valley...a headline yesterday...

"Silicon Valley's favorite diet is now available in a three-day meal kit that costs $210 " !!

http://www.businessinsider.in/theli...st/61566312.cms



Some whiny reporter who found the Diet Just Soooo Hard to do, ultimately realized that $210 was a little pricey for some salmon and almonds.



Dr Davis (Wheat Belly) believes that some of these exogenous ketone salts are potentially dangerous if taken in quantity throughout the day because the ketone salts are bound to minerals such as calcium or potassium and that the amount of mineral consumed can potentially become dangerously high if taken too often. He has written to some of the manufacturers to express his concerns. Best to stay away. His fear also is that someone could die from overuse. He thinks that exogenous ketones may have their use for some people but their safety at present is in question. This product is not a salt but I would still worry about it's safety if overused, the more is better issue.

That Business Insider article is a great illustration of the narcissism and laziness of some people coupled with a lack of understanding of the purpose of eating a ketogenic diet.

Jean
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Nov-09-17, 06:12
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,379
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Everyone seems to be looking for the "easy button."

Take a pill, drink a supplement, buy a meal plan and you don't have to change anything else. Why make life hard and give up the creature comforts that we all deserve?
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Nov-09-17, 06:33
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
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The idea of using ketone supplements to make initiating a fast easier is interesting, but I'd rather read a study about it than spend my own money.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Nov-09-17, 09:03
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bevangel bevangel is offline
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Plan: modified adkins (sort of)
Stats: 265/176/167 Female 68.5 inches
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Progress: 91%
Location: Austin, TX
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Drinking ketones to "imitate" ONE of the biochemical effects of fasting under some theory that doing so will somehow allow one to experience other beneficial effects of fasting without actually having to fast? This makes about as much sense to me as if some idiot were to note that ONE of the biochemical effects of extreme (anerobic) exercising is a build up of lactate in the body...so let's bottle lactate for people to drink so that they can get the beneficial effects of extreme exercise without having to actually exercise. DUH!
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Nov-09-17, 15:21
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,432
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
I have gone from ignoring these as Marketing scams to worrying that that rapid popularization and monetizing of anything "Ketogenic" is going to lead to its equally rapid demise after some idiot biohacker dies. Jacking up ketones artificially without compensating low glucose and other adjustments is an unknown.

Recently I figured out ketones activate insulin receptors (based on a video by Chris Masterjohn, and on my paradigm). This is how insulin drops because when ketones hit the liver and activate insulin receptors, the liver degrades insulin. Insulin degradation is the last step of a sequence - inhibition of ketogenesis, inhibition of glycogenolysis, insulin degradation. What this means is:

1. Too much exogenous ketones shuts down ketogenesis in the liver
2. Blood glucose drops, but;
3. Insulin drops, therefore allows blood glucose to rise accordingly later on
4. Other hormones compensate normally for low blood glucose, as the case may be

Before anything bad happens, we'd have to take tons of ketones in a bottle. The ketones we drink are not added to the ketones we produce - they shut down ketogenesis. We can produce up to about 10mmol blood ketones level without problem. Those drinks boost only up to 5mmol per bottle. In the event we drink a bottle when we're fasting and we got a ketone level of 10mmol, since ketogenesis is already pretty much shut down but still on-going a little, the excess we drink is gonna completely shut down ketogenesis, blood ketone level is going to rise quickly but drop just as quickly as the excess gets used up.

Interestingly, a quick search reveals that it's advised for diabetics type 1 to test for ketones when their blood glucose level is high, with the idea to avoid ketoacidosis. This doesn't make sense, ketoacidosis is a function of ketones, not blood glucose. Why would they advise that? Because the true condition isn't ketoacidosis, it's glucoacidosis (but we can't say that, because official guidelines and all that BS). What this means for those biohackers is that they'll probably get in trouble when they combine a bottle of ketones with some energy drink full of sugar. On the other hand, the effect of ketones on blood glucose will actually mitigate this problem. I believe it's gonna be real hard to do this wrong. In a way, it's a bit like low-carb, you gotta try real hard to do it wrong.

Anyways, I'm not worried. We've pointed out so many times why low-carb doesn't work - cuz it ain't actually low-carb. My guess is it's gonna be the same with this stuff - it ain't actually ketones or something like that.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Nov-10-17, 03:10
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JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,397
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Teaser suggested the Mike Mutzel podcast a while back, and recently in episode #205 he had Dom D'Agostino with "The Keto Diet and Brain Health"
http://highintensityhealth.com

I am still only about half way through it, and lucky if I understand 5% of what is being discussed about ketones So anyone with a biochemistry background...enjoy this one! Way over my head.

But I do come away with the impression there are a few different ways one could screw up taking exgoneous ketones. There were comments around minute 14-16 that they have "the capacity to be toxic", and later he said that it is possible to get the symptoms of intoxication without alcohol, something the military he works with does on purpose with ketone supplements. So thinking more of biohackers pushing to the limit with dose, and this podcast gives them some tips how to do that. So I didn’t understand the details, only the "TOXIC" part

The Show Notes:

Quote:
Key Takeaways: 01:38 One of Dr. D’Agostino’s early experiments lead to researchers developing and using ketones as a mitigation countermeasure to prevent oxygen toxicity seizures. 03:17 Nutritional ketosis has a stabilizing effect upon the brain. 03:54 The ketogenic diet and exogenous ketones impact many different mechanisms in synergy. Drugs impact one mechanism. 04:31 The cells of the hippocampus are selectively vulnerable to oxidative stress and energy deprivation, thus make effective study samples. 05:30 Acetyl acetate is neuroprotective, so the ketone esters developed by his lab are high in both acetyl acetate and beta hydroxybutyrate. 08:07 Clinically, the state of nutritional ketosis is defined as an elevation of blood beta hydroxybutyrate 0.5 and above or urine ketones, which measure acetyl acetate, is 15 mg/deciliter or above. 09:54 The more we subject our livers to oxidizing fats for fuel, the greater capacity we will have over time, unless we have a fatty oxidation disorder. 13:34 We may have the ability to robustly increase our capacity to make ketones, as well as break down and use ketones. 15:38 Ketone supplements, especially the ketone esters, have the capacity to be toxic if they are consumed in large quantities. 16:35 Dr. D’Agostino has tested 20 different types of ketones and ketone formulations. 17:22 Ketones have been found to be neuroprotective against high levels of oxygen, reactive oxygen species, glutamate and excitotoxicity. 21:18 The most potent anti-seizure effects found in animal models are from the elevation of both beta hydroxybutyrate and acetyl acetate. 23:52 Independent of their metabolic properties, ketone molecules have potent signaling properties. 29:38 Acetyl acetate does not have an enantiomer. Beta hydroxybutyrate does. 31:36 Exogenous ketones, when consumed as a bolus, can lower blood glucose levels via what appears to be a mechanism that is independent of insulin. 41:40 Ketones mitigate oxidative stress by enhancing mitochondrial energy production and reducing the leaking of electrons through the electron transport chain to molecular oxygen. 44:40 The activity of the enzyme, glutamic acid decarboxylase, is increased when you are in a state of nutritional ketosis and with exogenous ketones. 46:04 Exogenous ketones work through the adenosine A1 receptor. Adenosine is neuroprotective, has many different effects upon the heart and is a potent vasodilator. 46:40 Being in a state of moderate ketosis can augment brain blood flow by up to 30%. 47:18 Your brain stores more creatine when you are in ketosis. Creatine is neuroprotective, even against brain injury. 51:41 Ketosis brings the brain back to a state of balance: energetic balance, redox balance, and probably neurotransmitter balance. In ketosis, the energetic state of a cell can be preserved with less oxygen. 57:39 The ketogenic diet is being found to be effective therapy in a number of diseases.. 01:03:32 Being in a state of ketosis, combined with a state of mild calorie restriction, quiets the brain and reduces anxiety behavior (in rodent models).. Parents report that placing their child on a ketogenic style diet improves behavior. 01:06:35 Exogenous ketones can attenuate some of the rebound effect from periodic hypoglycemia, which would activate your sympathetic nervous system. 01:11:26 A ketogenic diet approach can be used to maintain and build muscle. 01:15:10 Your mitochondrial function will be better preserved if you live in a state of or go in and out of a state nutritional ketosis and do intermittent fasting a few times a week. 01:17:02 Exercise is a huge hammer, as big as nutrition, in slowing aging. 01:22:11 The ketogenic diet works for weight loss, in part, through an appetite suppressing effect. Weight loss due to ketone supplementation is from the ketone effects upon brain energy metabolism. 01:31:45 Dr. D’Agostino’s single favorite exercise is the chin-up. 01:32:20 Dr. D’Agostino’s desert island supplement is coffee, which is full of polyphenols.

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Nov-10-17 at 04:44.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Nov-10-17, 07:46
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,432
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Thanks, Janet, that's a nice summary. Didn't listen to the podcast, can't find it on the front page.

A few things I get from your summary. For example, based on my idea that oxygen is the actual fuel (oxygen is reactive, energy derived from this reaction), this means oxygen's energy potential goes up with ketones. And, if ketones drop BG not through insulin but through some other mechanism, I could imagine it does this by restoring the internal balance of the cell's energy requirement, i.e. the cell needs a proportion of both ketones and glucose to function at its maximum potential. With a high-carb diet, we disrupt this balance - energy output goes down. Ketones restore this balance up to its maximum potential. In other words, the water barrel analogy. Ketones are signaling molecules, i.e. they activate the adenosine receptor. They obviously activate the insulin receptor as well, especially in the liver, like I explained.

Here's a new idea about the whole thing. Taubes talked about the insulin hypothesis for epilepsy (see edit), where in the brain the insulin-degrading enzyme is used for both insulin degradation and recycling of myelin (or amylin, or what's its name, not sure, whatever), there's too much insulin so IDE is too busy with degrading insulin - myelin accumulates. Ketones activate insulin receptors in the brain too, but differently than in the liver. Instead, the last step in the brain tends to favor myelin recycling rather than insulin degradation. Unless there's two things happening at once - too much insulin, not enough ketones. Absence of ketones means no activation of insulin receptors, too much insulin means IDE is too busy with that. It's possible IDE has more affinity with insulin than with myelin, but this greater affinity only shows up during this specific condition, and the affinity is strongly mitigated by the effect of ketones activating insuln receptors in that specific way in the brain.

Ketones as signaling molecules. It's like a type of gasoline that dictates how well the engine works, by controlling the various electric and electronic devices that regulate the engine. That is cool.

-edit- Not epilepsy, it's Alzeheimer's.

Last edited by M Levac : Fri, Nov-10-17 at 16:13.
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Nov-10-17, 09:26
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,379
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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My curiosity with exogenous ketones stems from my wonderment that since humans can produce ketones au naturale, why would we want to add additional ketones? And . . . what long-term effects will exogenous ketones have on humans who consume them? No one can answer this today without speculating, as there is no history of consumption of exogenous forms. While I may have taken some dietary risks in the past with N=1 approaches, I'm not willing to gamble on these supplements until we really understand whether they are beneficial or not. If I can produce a moderate amount of ketones with a dietary approach, I know that it is my metabolism responding the way it should. That gives me all the confidence I need to achieve ketosis and endogenous fat burning in this way. I truly hope that exogenous ketones prove to be healthy and effective in treating diseases and improving health conditions. Time will tell.
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Nov-11-17, 02:28
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,397
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Podcast and YouTube with Dom is new. Have to be on those tabs at HIH to see/hear it, or download it from iTunes.
http://highintensityhealth.com/list...health-podcast/ #205

The YouTube filmed in Dom's lab of the interview is good. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XZSf5OC3aOQ
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