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  #1   ^
Old Wed, May-03-06, 16:53
sandygrady sandygrady is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 74
 
Plan: modified atkins
Stats: 130/129/116 Female 5' 2.5"
BF:24%/21%/12%
Progress: 7%
Location: Illinois, USA
Default Martial arts and LC?

I am just starting my LC journey and am having difficulties meshing this WOL with my athletic interests and goals. I am a 41 year old female martial artist who I stumbled upon both this WOL, as well as this forum, while researching inflamation. After much research and reading, I began this WOE about two weeks before Easter. First I noticed my knees immediately stopped hurting and then my skin cleared up for the first time in my life (confirmed that this works at a cellular level). I fell off the wagon at Easter partly due to the holiday and partly due to the dip in the quality of my training.

I find that I can train and perform fine when I am working out on my own, when I go at my own pace. My problem is that while I am in class, I am finding that after the first 30 minutes or so, the quality of my kicks are suffering. Yes, I can continue, but there is no explosiveness to them, they begin losing their snap, their quickness, they feel heavy. It feels like the muscles are not firing with as much intensity. My training has not changed, only my diet. When I go back to a more SAD, I regain my quickness, but the quality of my skin diminishes. So I know the internal effects are probably worse.

I also lift weights-have for about the last 15 years. I am currently weight training on M-W-F-SA doing 1 body part a day for 9-12 heavy sets. Each lifting session lasts about 30-40 min. My martial arts training is 1 hour in the dojang M-T-TH and a less intense practice session at home on W-F-SA lasting anywhere from 1 hour to 1 1/2 depending on what I am working on-again, these are less intense.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can at least maintain my current schedule while still getting all of the health benefits that this WOL offers me???

Thanks for all your suggestions and input!!

Sandy
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, May-03-06, 16:58
chelles's Avatar
chelles chelles is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 387
 
Plan: Old School Atkins
Stats: 000/000/170 Female 67 inches
BF:
Progress: 0%
Default

Because you have so little to lose and it will be slower coming off, it's tempting to go real low carb. I doubt you can keep up that level of exersize with real low carb.

DANDR says regular exercisers can still lose at 60-90 carbs a day.

How many carbs a day are you eating?

Also, most people can't have heavy workouts at the same level during induction or beginning a low-carb WOE. Atkins also addresses this in the book. I think it takes a while for your body to adjust to a new fuel.
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, May-03-06, 17:13
sandygrady sandygrady is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 74
 
Plan: modified atkins
Stats: 130/129/116 Female 5' 2.5"
BF:24%/21%/12%
Progress: 7%
Location: Illinois, USA
Default

Chelles-

Thanks for your reply, I am sure you are right about not dropping the carbs too much, I think mine are still pretty high by LC standards- yesturday I had 109 grams!

I am not really concerned so much with weight loss, but with the health benefits I believe this WOL offers. I suffer from inflammation of the joints-swollen knuckles, sore knees and weakened ankles while eating a SAD-not good for someone who loves both weights and martial arts. When cutting carbs, all of these symptoms totally disappear. Inflamation in the form of heart disease is extremely prevelant in my family as well. Both of my parents suffered heart attacks before the age of 60 and both of my surviving grandparents have had either a triple or a quadriple bypass. So heart disease is something I am trying to avoid.

So I am trying to figure out a way to optimize both my training as well as my health.

Yesturday, with the 109 grams of carbs,I did fine in the begining of class, but hit a wall half way through, actually it was more like 20 minutes into it. It is like I am fine one moment and the next, no fire left.

Not sure if this helps, but the carbs I had came in the form of goji berries, cashews, a banana and in my creatine.

Sandy

Last edited by sandygrady : Wed, May-03-06 at 17:42.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 08:05
kbfunTH's Avatar
kbfunTH kbfunTH is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,240
 
Plan: UDS
Stats: 199/190/190 Male 69
BF:12%/11%/6%
Progress: 100%
Location: Pflugerville, TX
Default

Give it a few more weeks for your body to become more adapted to burning fat for fuel.

What's your total diet composition look like?

What body parts are you training each day and what exercises are you using? What rep range are you working and are you working to failure on any of these sets?
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 09:41
sandygrady sandygrady is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 74
 
Plan: modified atkins
Stats: 130/129/116 Female 5' 2.5"
BF:24%/21%/12%
Progress: 7%
Location: Illinois, USA
Default

KbfunTH-
I started a journal today-very long first post,sorry. I am going to try and track stuff to figure this all out.

My diet composition has been back and forth lately--to much information flying around in my head. I have read the entire bear thread under the paleo forum. Very interesting. I also read all of the studies posted there. I have read neanderthin, paleo for athletes, atkins, ...as well as a ton of info from weight lifting sources! My 2 week experiment prior to Easter was a variation of bears very strict carnivore diet. It was on that that my knee pain totally disappeared as well as a major improvement in the quality of my skin. It was also on that that the quality of my training decreased though. From there, I went back to a more normal weight lifting type nutrition plan and my fingers began swelling a bit again as well as my skin began breaking out again. So, currently I am trying a more neanderthin approach-meat, nuts, fruits, veg. I also get carbs from the creatine I take. I've just done this for 1 day though so far, so not sure how my body will react yet. I had about 100 grams of carbs yesturday-most before and after my workout, and about 2100 cals with 100 g pro and the rest from fat.

For weights, I do shoulders on Monday, back on Wednesday, Chest on Friday and arms on Saturday. Ideally I would like to be able to add in some leg work as well as begin running in preparation for my black belt test which is still a year away, but endurance is my weak point.

I do 9 sets for shoulders, 12 for back, 9 for chest, 3 for bi's and 3 for tri's. I mix up the rep range every month-sometimes as low as 4, sometimes as high as 20. I do try for momentary failure at the end of each set as well as sometimes through in staggered sets, x-reps, or supersets-depending on how I am feeling.

What else can I tell you?? I really appreciate all of your help!!

Thanks,
Sandy
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 09:49
kaypeeoh kaypeeoh is offline
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Posts: 1,216
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/180/165
BF:
Progress: 25%
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There are limits to what the body can do with fat-burning. When the heart rate is very high like above 80% of maximum, the body can't keep it up for long on fat. I think the body starts breaking down proteins into amino acids that are then repackaged into sugars. But the process probably isn't fast enough to be effective.

If you're worried about insulin, Hammergel claims their products by using maltodextrin don't cause insulin spikes. That may not be important. At high heart rates sugar gets into the muscles without needing insulin. But you've got to some some sugar on board to begin with.

I don't know if it's true, but I've read the 5-carbon sugars from fruits go directly to the liver to be processed into fats, bypassing the muscles.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 11:07
sandygrady sandygrady is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 74
 
Plan: modified atkins
Stats: 130/129/116 Female 5' 2.5"
BF:24%/21%/12%
Progress: 7%
Location: Illinois, USA
Default

kaypeeoh- thanks, so if fruit goes directly to the liver, than would you suggest either having a potato or some brown rice before class, or simply toughing it out until my body becomes more keto adapted?? I don't want to lose any benefits this WOL offers by adding to many carbs, yet if the muscles need more glucose to fire?? Not sure what to do. Neanderthin recomends eating only meats, fruits, veggies, nuts and berries?

Any ideas??

Thanks!
Sandy
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 11:51
kaypeeoh kaypeeoh is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,216
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/180/165
BF:
Progress: 25%
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The goal of low-carb is to suppress insulin. Why insulin is considered bad, I don't understand. Ketosis means you are using body fat for energy. I think of it that fat is a cold energy source, like diesel. Sugar is a hot energy source, like rocket fuel. But if you are working that hard, you need the carbs.

Potato is a great energy source. It gets into the bloodstream as sugar even faster than sugar does. Don't understand that but the point is to work at such a high heart rate you need the fuel on board quickly.

All day long you are burning a blend of fat and carb. Most of the day the blend is largely fat. But when the heart rate climbs, there is a shift toward burning a larger percentage of
carb.

Training eventually shifts the blend toward burning more fat and less carb. But you cannot ever get to the point of burning fat exclusively. An untrained person is burning mostly carb when running a 12-minute mile. An Olympic marathoner is burning mostly fat while running a 5-minute mile for 26 miles. But he still requires sugar to keep the fat-burning on track.

You might try cutting out the carbs on days where you are lifting. Save the carbs for those "intense practice days". What's nice about doing that is the harder you work the faster you'll be burning off those carbs.

If there's a goal, it's to find the least amount of carbs to get you through the workout without bonking. It'll be a matter of trial and error.

Just my two cent opinion.
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 13:00
sandygrady sandygrady is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 74
 
Plan: modified atkins
Stats: 130/129/116 Female 5' 2.5"
BF:24%/21%/12%
Progress: 7%
Location: Illinois, USA
Default

Thanks Kaypeeoh-

I think to much insulin can be bad because it can lead to inflammation and inflamatory diseases-anyone correct me if I am wrong! So my goal would be to try and minimize carb intake on anyday I am not in class? Class is my most intense workouts. Then cut carbs on the days I weight train and practice at home?

If I did this would it interfer with my body becoming keto adapted or more use to burning fatty acids? Would the potato have any negative impact on my insulin if I ate it 2-3 hours before training? Would nuts work just as well as potatoes?

Sorry about all the questions and Thanks!!
Sandy
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 14:41
kaypeeoh kaypeeoh is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,216
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/180/165
BF:
Progress: 25%
Default

I've done marathons where I ate nothing but canned cake frosting for energy. And I've done ultramarathons where I ate only lowcarb fare. For a while it seemed to me that I didn't suffer nearly as much post-exercise pain while running on lowcarb and a lot more pain after 4 hours of eating cake frosting. But then I realized the sugar allowed me to run much faster. By working harder, obviously the muscles are going to be more sore the next few days.

Runners World Magazine did a study where they hooked runners up to gizmos that recorded where their energy was coming from while running a marathon on a treadmill. Every runner initially was burning mostly sugar but after an hour or so was burning mostly fat. It suggests the fat-burning is automatic. It kicks in when tissue glycogen stores become low. If that's the case, then "keto-adaption" may be a myth.

Lowcarb diets say you use up that stored glycogen before beginning to burn fat. As an athlete your glycogen stores are low to begin with. So you are already "keto-adapted". If that's the case, you aren't going to stop fat-burning just because you ate a potato.

BTW, I'd suggest eating that potato shortly before the workout, not 2-3 hours before it. Insulin will be released as soon as the sugar hits the bloodstream. Wait three hours and your blood sugar may be extra low (Somogi effect?). Workout right away and the sugar gets sent to the muscles before the insulin is released.


I was hoping someone would chime in with an alternate opinion. I'm not an expert on exercise. I've been a runner for 30 years and am still learning.
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 15:22
sandygrady sandygrady is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 74
 
Plan: modified atkins
Stats: 130/129/116 Female 5' 2.5"
BF:24%/21%/12%
Progress: 7%
Location: Illinois, USA
Default

Thanks for your help and explanations Kaypeeoh! I'm not sure anyone is ever an "expert" on anything, there is always more to learn! But your personal experience does help! I will try the potato idea right before class and see what happens.

The only reason I thought trying the potato 2-3 hours before class is because it is really hard to workout intensely if I have any food in my stomach. But if I eat it alone, without any protein or fat, it should digest rather quickly.

Thanks for your patience!

Sandy
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 15:55
kbfunTH's Avatar
kbfunTH kbfunTH is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,240
 
Plan: UDS
Stats: 199/190/190 Male 69
BF:12%/11%/6%
Progress: 100%
Location: Pflugerville, TX
Default

Even at a 109 grams of carbs, that is still considered low compared to your total calorie intake. At this percentage of carb intake, I don't think you're going to see any difference, in terms of energy, from your carb choices. The volume of carbs is what's going to make the biggest difference. Since your body has been previously dependent on higher amounts of carbs, it will take several weeks before it becomes adapated to using stored and ingested fat more effeciently for fuel.

Regarding your workouts, I would reconsider what you are currently doing for something less taxing on the nervous system. With your Martial Art training, the last thing you need is muscle soreness/fatigue and a nervous system that takes days to recover because of the stress put on it by working your sets to failure. A better aproach would be to alternate between as few a exercises each workout as it takes to cover as many muscles as you can. An example of this, would be something like, power clean and press, 5 sets of 5 reps, or 5x2, 3x3, 4x2 etc. Deadlifts, pull-ups and some bent or side presses would be another example. Working somewhere between 75-95% of your 1 rep maximum avoiding failure. By doing this, you'll be able to repeat the same routine on alternating days. The benefit, is a tonic like effect on the nervous system, great muscle tone and strength. Use your martial arts training days to work your endurance and/or strength endurance.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 16:10
ptouch's Avatar
ptouch ptouch is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 316
 
Plan: food combine/sommersize
Stats: 143.5/140.5/125 Female 63 in
BF:24/23.5/20
Progress: 16%
Location: california
Default

Hey sandy
this is all interesting to me...
i'm an athelete too still playin garound in low carb to figureout what works best.

i read it's good to eat alittle protein after work outs to help your body restore muscle and tissue fiber af ter intense training...
have uheard of this...

and eating protein 2 hourss before your work out makes me AMPED for my sessions....

if i eat too much carbs i run out of fuel sooner,
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 17:25
sandygrady sandygrady is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 74
 
Plan: modified atkins
Stats: 130/129/116 Female 5' 2.5"
BF:24%/21%/12%
Progress: 7%
Location: Illinois, USA
Default

Great advice KbfunTH! I can definately switch from my current weight training regimine to something with more compound exercises. Since I would then be hitting more than 1 muscle group with each exercise, would you suggest working out each muscle group more than once a week but with different exercises-like snatch and cleans one day and deadlifts mixed with a back row another? or squats leading into toe raises on a third? Or create one plan and use it on alternate days, or even create 2 plans and alternate them like a body for life type plan? How many sets would you think are optimal, but not overkill for each session?


ptouch- I know what you are saying about too many carbs before a workout! If I do eat too many, I feel like falling asleep, too few though and I am totally bonking! And yes, I usually have protein about three hours prior to a session-really helps to focus my mind. I also usually try to drink a protein shake after my weight workouts, I think it helps with muscle recovery. I haven't done it after my martial arts training because my class is usually at night and too much fluids after dinner keep me up all night! I started a journal today to try and track how different foods/ratios/workouts effect my body and my training. I am really hoping to learn how to best balance everything! Feel free to post suggestions there too! I am here to learn. I have an open mind and am ready!

Wow ptouch-just realized we are vertially the same height!
5' 2 1/2" here.

Thanks again!

Sandy
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, May-04-06, 18:12
ptouch's Avatar
ptouch ptouch is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 316
 
Plan: food combine/sommersize
Stats: 143.5/140.5/125 Female 63 in
BF:24/23.5/20
Progress: 16%
Location: california
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yea an du see i'd like to weigh what you weigh
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