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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Jan-12-18, 11:16
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Posts: 2,149
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/160/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
Location: NE WA
Default Slightly confunsed - keto vs. lchf

When I knew I needed to eat many fewer carbs to help my diabetes, I chose lchf over keto because everything I read about keto advocated higher carbs than Dr. Bernstein. But a diabetes support forum I read says they are keto rather than lchf, but I think they are actually lchf because they follow Dr. Bernstein.

Here at the Active Low-Carber forum, quite a few people who aren't diabetic eat more carbs than I do & still lose weight & feel better. Are they actually eating a ketogenic diet rather than lchf?

Is there any real difference between keto & lchf? Or is it just that keto is the diet of the moment?
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Jan-12-18, 12:20
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,226
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
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Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Huh? Is there like a "Keto Diet(tm)" as opposed to a diet that triggers ketosis?

If we're talking about ketogenic diet then it is one that triggers ketosis. That can certainly also be called LCHF too since a ketogenic diet is probably also going to be very LC and HF.

So, I don't know what those folks were talking about. They sound confused.
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Jan-12-18, 12:30
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
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Posts: 3,792
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

There is at least one book called "The Keto Diet".

All ketogenic diets are LCHF and those LCHF diets with low enough carbs that don't knock you out of ketosis are ketogenic. This is the only way of eating that works for me to lose and maintain.

Some LCHF diets involve just enough carbs to keep you out of ketosis all the time because "the experts" think ketosis is unhealthy. They don't work for me.

Personally I eat ketogenically most of the time, but occasionally splurge with a few more carbs, but cannot do that all the time because it starts triggering hunger, cravings & binging, so I return to ketogenic eating.

I suspect people started using "LCHF" to emphasize that their diet is not high protein and does not require ketone-level measuring. But I've heard one Ornish-type use the acronym for Low-Calorie High-Fiber, probably to ride the bandwagon. Also, ignorant doctors think ketosis is the same as ketoacidosis, so avoiding the use of "keto" may be helpful to get them to even look at a diet. But "LC" is too broad - some think it can be 40, 60 or 100g of net carbs, but it depends on the person. For me 30g net carbs is my threshold for disaster, so I aim for 20.

Last edited by deirdra : Fri, Jan-12-18 at 12:47.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Jan-12-18, 12:46
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
Default

I see a lot of facebook keto groups that define a ketogenic diet as having less than 20 net carbs. So by that measure, at 24 grams the Bernstein diet certainly qualifies. But yeah, like Nancy says, if you're not in ketosis while eating at that level, that isn't a ketogenic diet for you.

I would say keto is the "word" for the moment. I see young fitness-focused people saying things like "Atkins is for overweight middle-aged women" and keto is for athletes and such, and some people who even seem to distinguish keto from Atkins by saying that keto has enough protein to build muscle, and Atkins is high fat, for people who don't care whether they lose as much muscle as fat. A lot of people are calling something indistinguishable from Atkins "keto", and then bad-mouthing Atkins.

Somehow we have "nutritional ketosis" with people distinguishing that from Atkins, when "benign dietary ketosis" was there all along. Nothing new under the sun, every low carb approach, high fat, high protein, moderate both, etc. can be supported from the original Atkins books.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Jan-12-18, 12:49
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
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Posts: 3,792
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

I totally agree, teaser. The main reason for all the different names is to sell new books and products. Atkins '72 + salt is all I need.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Jan-12-18, 13:52
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,954
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

One thing I liked about DietDoctor's new Keto Course, Part 1, https://www.dietdoctor.com/keto-course is that he basically says Keto IS the old Atkins diet.
He and Dr Westman peg the level at which most everybody can "be in ketosis" at 20 g total carbs. That number was taken from the patient files and Dr Atkin's own experience, so when Dr. Westman was designing his first clinical trial on LC, he was sure the subjects would be in "ketosis".
A keto diet is any level of carbs that puts YOU in ketosis, that may be 10g because of your long standing diabtes, it may be 50g for a young male athlete.

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Jan-12-18 at 13:57.
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Jan-13-18, 11:23
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/160/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
Location: NE WA
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Thanks, everyone! Since I have no clue if I'm in ketosis I'll keep calling my diet lchf. All I'm really sure of is my bg goes up if I eat too many carbs & down if I'm behaving myself.

Teaser - I like the idea that it's the "word" of the moment.
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Jan-13-18, 11:45
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,115
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

I wonder if that's why I posted my plan as "ketosis" rather than keto, way back whenever I did that? As far as I know, ketosis is still ketosis.
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  #9   ^
Old Sun, Jan-14-18, 07:43
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,954
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I wonder if that's why I posted my plan as "ketosis" rather than keto, way back whenever I did that? As far as I know, ketosis is still ketosis.


Yeah, but now the word is Keto, or you are not with the In-Crowd.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jan-20-18, 00:40
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 5,622
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/238/153 Female 5'8"
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Progress: 10%
Location: Massachusetts
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ANother thought. Ketosis has been labeled as a bad condition, one of disease, without careful understanding of the circumstances. WHen insulin no longer works, and the body must shift to using fat stores for energy THAT is a disease state as the body needs to be able to utiiize insulin. From what I understand is that this is caused by a body that has been hammered with carbohydrates. Cells have lost their sensitivity to insulin ( not a good thing), Or it can be a disease that attack the Ilets of Langerhan, the insulin producing cells. The net result is the same. The body must use fats for energy.

The other state of ketosis is when our bodies act like a sleeping bear during hybernation. Our body switches to adipose tissue for energy during the long time of no eating, say a long winter for that hybernating bear. NOT a disease state.

For some reason, I suspect closed minds, doctors cant see past the only likely ketosis discussed in med school. ANd the result is bashing all states of ketosis. When I read Dr Atkins book, I understood what he was trying to say ANd Teaser you phrased it well!

Given that I still encounter the anti Atkins, I see "keto" as a workaround. The effect is the same; the metabolic pathway is the same. WIth very low or no carbs the body must act like the hybernating bear and use the stored energy to maintain the body.

I do have one question though. A friend argued that the brain must use glucose to function. I have found some evidence that shows the brain actually thrives on ketones better than glucose.Given the state of that hibernating bear I am inclined to beleive the brain is fine with ketones for energy.

( I am not advocating a no carb diet; the micronutrients of vegies/fruit are very important to good health. Even 20 carbs a day in veg is wonderful.)
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Jan-20-18, 07:50
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Posts: 2,149
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/160/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
Location: NE WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
( I am not advocating a no carb diet; the micronutrients of vegies/fruit are very important to good health. Even 20 carbs a day in veg is wonderful.)


That's pretty much what Dr B. says in his book. I've been pondering my diet & past food choices & noticed that I eat many more healthful vegetables than I used to. In the old days I ate a lot of potatoes, corn, beans, & whole grains. Now I eat a lot of leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower, zucchini, asparagus, & other green vegetables.
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Jan-20-18, 08:11
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/238/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 10%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

YES!!! That happened to me too!!!!
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