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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 17:01
TyLe_RoAd TyLe_RoAd is offline
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Posts: 49
 
Plan: Non-specific
Stats: 234/145/120 Female 5 feet 5 inches
BF:
Progress: 78%
Default Feeling human again after eating carbs, any thoughts?

Hello everyone, I'm a first time poster. If anyone's wondering about my rather odd name, it's an anagram of the first two letters of the names of my cats -- Rose, Tye, Leo, and Addie. I would've used my other nickname but it was too long for this forum, so I'm stuck with my crazy cat lady name!

Anyway, I could really use some help. I've been eating a grain free diet for a while now, and four months ago I decided to ditch the sweetened foods in my diet to see if I could lose more weight. The result was overwhelming fatigue, excruciating muscle pain, and constant hunger. I ate more thinking I wasn't getting enough calories, but I piled on 15 pounds and was still ravenous.

I got some chocolates for Christmas, and when I ate one it gave me the most epic sugar rush I've ever experienced, and afterwards I actually had energy, I could think clearly, and I wasn't hungry anymore. I've been eating more carbs since then, and I'm pain free and feeling a whole lot better.

This is driving me insane. I mean, all I did here was replace chocolate soy milk with canned, unsweetened coconut milk and cocoa powder, and trail mix with eggs and cheese. To try to deal with my hunger I ate more eggs, meat, vegetables, avocados, I even tried unsweetened soy milk to see if I needed the vitamins in it . . . but I was revived by a freaking Turtles chocolate??

Does anyone here have any idea what happened here? I was only eating around 25 - 30 grams of carbs per day and I read that if you go below 50 you'll go into ketosis, am I mistaken on that? Or does it sound like I had a bad reaction to being in ketosis? I don't have a gallbladder, maybe I just couldn't process the amount of fat I ate at a time?

I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice here! My reactive hypoglycemia is acting up again so it's time to cut back on the carbs, but I have no idea how far to take it. I'm starting to think ketosis really isn't for me, but too many carbs mess me up too, I'm caught between a rock and a hard place here!
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 17:26
nawchem's Avatar
nawchem nawchem is offline
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Posts: 8,230
 
Plan: No gluten, CAD
Stats: 163.5/161.0/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/27.7/27.3
Progress: 17%
Default

Muscle pain could be electrolytes, especially magnesium and potasium.
Ketostix can't read amounts people usually make eating more than 50 carbs.

I have hypoglycemia and a rush of bad symptoms when I jump into lowcarb and it takes a while to be able to lower. My symptoms are alleviated around 50 net carbs. I can slowly lower from there. Everytime I feel hungry in the beginning 1/3 cups nuts can help. I'm sure know the low blood sugar drill. You never need as much food as you think you need to turn it around.

It would be very interesting for you to do the glucose tolerance test with insulin levels.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 17:41
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is online now
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Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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Welcome TyLe RoAd. My catlady name would be DiMo DwFr (perhaps it would mean something in Welsh).

How many days in a row do you think you were in ketosis before eating more carbs again? Fatigue & muscle pain can occur while you're adapting, which takes 3-10 days for most people. And without a gall bladder, you probably will need to slowly increase the fat content.

I normally stay in ketosis, but if I go off plan for a few weeks and then return, I often need a nap to get past the fatigue in the first 3 days and then my energy levels go up.

Also, some people are intolerant of things like coconut or soy/legumes. What is in your "trail mix" or anything else you have changed? I get fatigued with excruciating joint pain if I eat 2T of peanuts (legumes, not nuts) or peanut butter even though I grew up eating PB virtually every day.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 17:52
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thud123 thud123 is offline
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Posts: 4,693
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 43%
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What were the "sweetened foods" you ditched? Was that the chocolate soy milk?

What brand of coconut milk are you using?

Interesting case this is!
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Jan-05-18, 05:30
TyLe_RoAd TyLe_RoAd is offline
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Posts: 49
 
Plan: Non-specific
Stats: 234/145/120 Female 5 feet 5 inches
BF:
Progress: 78%
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Thank you for the replies everyone! I'll respond to the posts in order.

~nawchem

I actually read about magnesium and potassium deficiencies, and started using potassium fortified salt on my food, added avocados to my smoothies, and doubled down on the cocoa powder and spinach in my smoothies, but nothing helped. Plus, if it was that, would the pain have faded after eating carbs?

Yeah, I tend to binge like crazy when my blood sugar is low, although I really don't need much to eat too. Chocolate was always my secret weapon there, one piece is sweet enough to bring my blood sugar back up, but I didn't need it anymore after I ditched the grains.

I'll mention the glucose tolerance test to my doctor, thanks for the idea!

~dierdra

Another cat lady with four cats! It's a nice round number isn't it?

It wasn't days, it was months, I stuck with it from September into late December, I kept thinking I just had to figure out what my diet was missing and I'd be fine. I did up the fat content fairly slowly, but I'm one of the rare ones who hasn't had any problems to speak of since my gallbladder came out, probably because I was so sick when it was finally done!

The trail mix had peanuts, coconut flakes, dried cranberries, and chocolate covered coffee beans in it, instead of that I had eggs with cheese until I finally accepted the fact that I really don't like eggs -- then I just loaded up my smoothies with more avocados to keep the calorie count the same.

Then, I replaced the chocolate soy milk with coconut milk and cocoa powder for the base for my smoothies, and that's it. My dinners are just meat and veggies and they stayed the same and since my jaw's messed up I drink smoothies the rest of the time. I used both almond and peanut butter in my smoothies at different points, but I never noticed any difference in how I felt, and all I had to do was add a tablespoon of sugar to my coconut milk smoothies to perk me right up, so I doubt the milk itself is the issue either.

~thud123

The sweet goodies I dropped were chocolate soy milk, craisins, and chocolate covered coffee beans, the most painful cut of all! I'm using Western Family coconut milk, it's a store brand, unsweetened and not cut with any water.

Yes, this really is interesting, the same type of interesting the past year has been for me!! I want my boring life back.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Jan-05-18, 05:55
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cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Posts: 4,013
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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I really don't know what you need to do but I do wonder if you are getting enough protein. This is pure guess work and speculation on my part. It just seems to me that there should be a way to fix this without a sugar fix. Do you track your food? That might help in figuring out what's going wrong. I use cronometer to track.

Jean
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Jan-05-18, 09:13
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thud123 thud123 is offline
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Posts: 4,693
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 43%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyLe_RoAd
, I could really use some help. I've been eating a grain free diet for a while now, and four months ago I decided to ditch the sweetened foods in my diet to see if I could lose more weight. The result was overwhelming fatigue, excruciating muscle pain, and constant hunger. I ate more thinking I wasn't getting enough calories, but I piled on 15 pounds and was still ravenous.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TyLe_RoAd
~thud123

The sweet goodies I dropped were chocolate soy milk, craisins, and chocolate covered coffee beans, the most painful cut of all! I'm using Western Family coconut milk, it's a store brand, unsweetened and not cut with any water.

Yes, this really is interesting, the same type of interesting the past year has been for me!! I want my boring life back.


If you are susceptible to "Atkins Flu" I suspect you are experiencing it. Unless you were super moderate on the soy milk, crasins and chocolate covered beans I can't imagine that you were well fat adapted.

Adding sugar back into your diet and feeling better is also a clue.

If you stay with low carb i.e. ~20 carbs per day you might want to add some magical salt or "bullion" to see if that allieveates some of the symptoms.

I, for one, don't experience the "Atkins Flu" for some reason. For some others they get torn up by it. So there's a lot of variation. I just came off a long carb experiment (over a week) and into a water fast for the last few days. My body seems to be able to switch pertty easily for some reason - I don't feel bad, I feel better eliminating carbohydrate to 0.

Good luck and hope you feel better soon!

Last edited by thud123 : Fri, Jan-05-18 at 09:20.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Jan-05-18, 12:23
nawchem's Avatar
nawchem nawchem is offline
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Posts: 8,230
 
Plan: No gluten, CAD
Stats: 163.5/161.0/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/27.7/27.3
Progress: 17%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyLe_RoAd
Thank you for the replies everyone! I'll respond to the posts in order.

I actually read about magnesium and potassium deficiencies, and started using potassium fortified salt on my food, added avocados to my smoothies, and doubled down on the cocoa powder and spinach in my smoothies, but nothing helped. Plus, if it was that, would the pain have faded after eating carbs?


Nothing ever worked for me but supplementation. Protein Power says you can supplement up to 400 mg of potassium - I've rarely needed that much. Now that I'm keto adapted I don't have to supplement. More salt helps lots of people.

I think Thud is right about LC flu. LC can be harder for people whose bodies have disorders and if their sensitive. What you could do is figure how many carbs you regularly eat and drop the amount by 10%. See what happens.
It you have symptoms that are alleviated by sugar, its obviously a blood sugar issue.

Your weightloss is terrific!
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Jan-05-18, 22:05
TyLe_RoAd TyLe_RoAd is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 49
 
Plan: Non-specific
Stats: 234/145/120 Female 5 feet 5 inches
BF:
Progress: 78%
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~cotonpal

I load my smoothies with peanut butter and flax seed and my dinners have plenty of protein, around 30 grams on average, so I don't think it's that. When I was really starving I tried eating fish since I could cook it quickly, plus there's protein in the soy milk, neither helped.

I know, this is crazy, I hate loading up on sugar like this! I've kept a food diary for years now, what kind of information should I look for here? I'll check out that web-site, thanks!

~thud123

That was my thinking, that it was the Atkins flu, but it should've passed after three months, shouldn't it? I did go light on the craisins and chocolate covered coffee beans but I had two cups of chocolate milk every day. I tried bone broth but it didn't help. What is magic salt though? I did a search and found a bunch of sites about how to do magic spells using salt!

You're so lucky you can switch back and forth! I'm so sensitive, now that I've loaded up on carbs they're making me hungrier and blurring my vision, but I can't eat too few either, so it seems. I gotta find that fine line again . . .

Thank you! I'm hanging in there, even eating too many carbs I feel way better than before, I might not be able to see but at least I have some energy! I gotta slam on the brakes or I'm going to keep on gaining weight though.

~nawchem

I never did find any realistic potassium supplements, they're all something ridiculous like 50 mg when you need 4,700 per day or something, way easier to use potassium fortified salt and avocados!

Thank you so much for that idea! I think the best way to do that is to figure out how much sugar is in the chocolate milk and when I run out, I'll go back to unsweetened milk and gradually add less sugar to it. At least that way if I get to a point where I'm not adapting anymore I'll know exactly where the line is and can get the carbs from fruit instead, and maybe I'll even get rid of that pesky bag of sugar in the pantry in the process!

Thank you! It really wasn't much work though, I lost the first 50 lbs by making homemade frozen dinners and snacking on popcorn instead of chips, and another 50 lbs ditching grains and snacking on trail mix instead of popcorn. I'm hoping to get back to 100 lbs lost, it's a nice round number.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Jan-05-18, 23:55
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
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Posts: 4,693
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 43%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyLe_RoAd
...now that I've loaded up on carbs they're making me hungrier and blurring my vision, but I can't eat too few either, so it seems. I gotta find that fine line again . . .

This would have me more concerned than any weight gain. Are you checking your blood glucose levels with a meter? They are inexpensive and might give you some clue if it's related to T2D or onset if you have not been diagnosed - also possible that it could be completely unrelated but you seem to have found some correlation between loading up on carbs and the blurred vision.

When was the last time you had a physical if it's been a while it might be time and have your doctor pay special attention to your complaint of eating and vision.

Oh, and magic salt, just a euphemism. Some people around here think salt cures corns too. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Sometimes it just blurts out of peoples keyboards

Get feeling well soon!
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Jan-06-18, 09:21
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 2,250
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Just reading this thread and the responses, I highly recommend you adopt and follow a proven low carb plan. Go the the Atkins thread and find a recommended book, use the short book by Dr. Eric Westman, or use the excellent information on the DietDoctor.com website. You need to be consistent with your eating before you can troubleshoot the issues. It takes a while to adapt, but the symptoms you mention are alarming, and if you're drinking peanut butter smoothies, my suspicion is that you're not really eating low carb. When you straddle low/high carb, you're going to experience difficulties. Good luck!
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Jan-06-18, 10:02
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 12,706
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I think if you spill salt, some vampires are forced to stop right there and count each grain. Ridiculous species.

Hypoglycemia... maybe taking a method from type 1 diabetics would make sense. In Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution, he suggests keeping the numbers low. Keeping carbs really low means people don't need to inject nearly as much insulin, so that if they overdo things on insulin, or if the carbohydrate content of a food is off by 10 or 20 percent or so, the mistakes are smaller. Less oversteering. If there is a hypo, since the mistakes are smaller, the amount of glucose needed to correct the hypo is much smaller--preventing an oversteer in the other direction. You felt good after eating that turtle chocolate, maybe because it was just enough to correct for a hypo, not so much that it threw you into another round of reactive hypoglycemia further on.

Do you have a glucose meter? Another page from Bernstein's book (okay, pretty much all the pages), keeping meals constant and taking regularly spaced readings afterwards, looking for a pattern makes sense. Are you getting hypo symptoms sort of randomly through the day, right after meals, two or three hours later, in the morning vs. evening, etc. One study in the 60's showed a fair number of people with perfect blood glucose responses at the two hour mark, where the standard glucose tolerance test usually ends, going hypo at the four hour mark.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Jan-06-18, 20:46
TyLe_RoAd TyLe_RoAd is offline
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Posts: 49
 
Plan: Non-specific
Stats: 234/145/120 Female 5 feet 5 inches
BF:
Progress: 78%
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~thud123

I had a finger stick to get blood out of me once. It hurt worse than all but one of my gallstone attacks, my finger swelled up, turned black and blue, and I couldn't use it for most of a week. And it was done by a nurse who presumably knew how to use the thing. So, nope, I haven't tested my blood sugar!! My doctor always tests me for diabetes when she gets blood out of me and I'm always on the brink of hypoglycemia though.

I'm not sure I've ever had a physical? I did have a bunch of blood tests this summer, but nobody called me so I guess they were normal, that or they got lost in the confusion during the wildfires. I think I mentioned the blurred vision to her, but I'll mention it again next time I see her to make sure she knows.

Oh my god, I feel like an idiot. But salt really is magical! I had some killer headaches for a while and I discovered the best cure for them was a shot of nice salty soy sauce. Horrific, but effective!

Thank you! I cut back on the carbs today and didn't notice my vision blur, this is a good start!

~GRB5111

Is there any meal plan that allows you to have lots of smoothies? My jaw is really tender and I hate cooking, but it seems like all of the ones I looked at are heavy on the meat and veggies.

I'm already very consistent in how I eat though, the only meal that changes day to day is dinner? And why is peanut butter a problem? Virtually all of my carbs come from my smoothies to be fair, but the vast majority come from the frozen fruit, there's maybe one or two grams in a tablespoon of peanut butter? (Sorry if I sound defensive, I'm just confused!)

Thank you, I need some luck!

~teaser

I never heard that one before, useful information to have!

That's exactly why I cut grains from my diet actually! I found that when I ate trail mix instead of popcorn and ditched rice I was almost never hungry anymore, I ate because it was time to eat. Since carbs don't satisfy me I thought I could cut them further without missing them, look how that one worked out!

Do you really think it's possible that I could've been hypoglycemic for weeks, even months, on end? A lot of it sounds bang on right, except I don't see the muscle pain mentioned.

I don't have a glucose meter and the thought of using one makes my blood run cold, I can't imagine inflicting that level of pain on myself. I really am curious to find out what blood sugar is doing but good god. I don't know how diabetics can stand that kind of pain multiple times per day, let alone use their hands afterwards.
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  #14   ^
Old Sun, Jan-07-18, 08:46
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,706
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I don't necessarily think that chronic hypoglycemia explains the muscle pain etc. But if you look at fibromyalgia and other complaints, pain and fatigue seem to go together a lot of the time.

I'm bipolar. A common observation with depression is low energy, also an increased perception of pain. I find these things run together for me. I have a chronic shoulder pain issue with an obvious cause, I fell down in the mud somewhere around 10 years ago, onto a hard metal object. Since then that shoulder acts up now and again. If I'm in hypo or frank mania, the shoulder hurts less--in fact it doesn't hurt at all. If I'm down, it tends to be worse. All of this got better when I went from a looser low carb diet to a more intentional ketogenic diet.

Another pain/fatigue connection is caffeine. I cycle on and off the stuff--it gives me a boost and makes my shoulder feel good, but only if I'm sensitive to it. So I'll cycle down, maybe taking the odd aspirin to work out, and then bring it back up again slowly, until it loses effect again.

Ketosis also seems to increase my sensitivity to caffeine, if I go from a less ketogenic to a more ketogenic diet, or if I fast for a day, often I'll have to cut back on the caffeine to avoid becoming jittery.

I'm not saying you should use caffeine to manage your energy levels.
Just something to consider if your pattern of intake has changed with the diet change.
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  #15   ^
Old Sun, Jan-07-18, 09:38
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 2,250
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyLe_RoAd
~GRB5111

Is there any meal plan that allows you to have lots of smoothies? My jaw is really tender and I hate cooking, but it seems like all of the ones I looked at are heavy on the meat and veggies.

I'm already very consistent in how I eat though, the only meal that changes day to day is dinner? And why is peanut butter a problem? Virtually all of my carbs come from my smoothies to be fair, but the vast majority come from the frozen fruit, there's maybe one or two grams in a tablespoon of peanut butter? (Sorry if I sound defensive, I'm just confused!)

Thank you, I need some luck!


TyLe_RoAd - my comment wasn't about smoothies in general. It's more that you need to watch what you add to your smoothies. Be careful, as drinking your meals can lead to lots of unwanted carbs. Peanut butter has carbs, even the brands that don't add sugar, and the leading brands today all add sugar. Be aware!

As for fruit in smoothies, unsweetened fruit still contains fructose. Fructose at very low levels is ok, but at higher levels, there is evidence that it causes damage as much if not more than sucrose (table sugar) depending on amounts consumed. The danger with smoothies is that blending ingredients can require a lot of ingredients, which can result in the consumption of a lot of carbs (sugar). I would choose one of the plans I referenced with current guidelines, and explore how to make low carb smoothies. I'm sure there are sources available, and you might find it right here on this forum using the advanced search. Note that the simple search does not work, use the Advanced Search for this. You'll find posts.

I highly recommend DietDoctor.com as a source for constructing a meal plan. It provides lots of recipes for low carb and keto approaches. I'm sure you'll find some guidelines and cautions for concocting smoothies. If you like avocados, they are excellent for using in smoothies where they lend the creaminess desired and you can make them savory or sweet (using stevia or some other sweetener that doesn't trigger an insulin response) as you like. There are many resources available, and choosing a plan and developing an eating method based on that plan will enable you to create the necessary foundation on which you can make adjustments and course corrections as you learn what works for you. Most of all, be patient. The low carb approach works, but you have to give yourself time in learning the correct approach and seeing results. I've seen some amazing claims about rapid weight loss, but for most of us, it's a longer process that really works over time. You can do this!
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