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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jan-05-12, 13:18
Kaity's Avatar
Kaity Kaity is offline
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Posts: 46
 
Plan: 180DH/W.Price/BED
Stats: 145/135/140 Female 6"
BF:
Progress: 200%
Location: Canada
Question Starch LOWERS insulin? Anecdotal Evidence

READ THIS POST and discuss !
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Jan-05-12, 13:23
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 25,866
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
“It is of interest that diets high in fibre-rich cereals and tuberous vegetables tend to result in an improvement in basal blood glucoses.”
p. 281

My question is... compared to what? A typical sugar, fructose filled diet? Then yes. A good paleo or low carb diet... maybe not.

Are we looking at someone with a basically healthy, young metabolism or someone verging on diabetes or with a long history of obesity? I think there is a big difference between how well people can handle even "good" carbs.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Jan-05-12, 14:36
Kaity's Avatar
Kaity Kaity is offline
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Posts: 46
 
Plan: 180DH/W.Price/BED
Stats: 145/135/140 Female 6"
BF:
Progress: 200%
Location: Canada
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~NancyLC- Well the rest of the post is about a woman who had been low-carbing for four years, and whose fasting insulin levels had been varying between 14 and 33 IU/m. After four months of eating starch, it came down to 4.7 IU/m.

So, we would be looking at one person with a poor metabolism while on a low carb diet, who improved it by eating starches.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jan-05-12, 15:21
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teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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From a single case study? There are disorders where people have a higher than usual insulin response to protein. Truth is, there are people who will fare better on high carb than on low carb, this doesn't make for a general rule.

Quote:
*I have no idea why my glucose is so low. I did not feel even slightly hypoglycaemic. I generally feel fantastic in terms of hunger and cravings so am slightly puzzled. Still, if the test was performed using a normal lab range of 50-110; I would only be slightly under it. Still, I think a FBG of 49 is a HECK of a lot better than a FBG of 97!


None of this looks typical to me. One possible explanation is a lab error in her favour.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Jan-05-12, 15:24
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
***** I am leptin resistant obviously. Any cure/ideas for that? I have read that it is related to reverse T3, as reverse T3 makes the brain think it is starving and thus leptin resistance. Yet another reason I need to get T3 only. I will also be taking a herb that I read has reversed leptin resistance in some studies. I do have a lot of inflammation in my body (high CRP always and elevated liver enzymes at times), which I will be treating under the tutelage of a functional doc. Does inflammation contribute to leptin resistance?”


Also, maybe she's not leptin resistant. Higher than expected leptin might make for an increase in insulin sensitivity.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Jan-05-12, 16:24
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 25,866
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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What herb helps with leptin sensitivity?

Eating protein does raise insulin for longer periods than eating glucose, but you don't get the rise in blood glucose with it. The insulin helps the amino acids get into the cells.

My experiments adding starches just resulted in weight gain for me.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Jan-05-12, 17:32
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
A traumatic childhood stress caused this person to suddenly become insulin resistant (as chronic stress hormone secretion is the primary root cause of insulin resistance) and gain something like 60 pounds in a year if I recall correctly from our email exchanges. She has had blood sugar regulation and thyroid problems ever since, which she tried to medicate with a low-carbohydrate diet to varying degress of restriction.


Again, maybe not a typical case.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Jan-05-12, 18:18
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Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaity
READ THIS POST and discuss !
Well Matt Stone said on Facebook:
Quote:
I'm about to go absolutely apeshit on low-carbism and Paleo for the next month, working on a book project while also collecting personal testimonies of low-carb failures.
so I guess this is his first in this series. He says himself about this blog post:
Quote:
I'm bummed that this post hasn't gotten a jillion views. It is probably one of the most impressive reversals of insulin resistance ever recorded.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Jan-06-12, 14:30
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Posts: 1,876
 
Plan: Generic low carb
Stats: 212/167/135 Female 66.75
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
Well Matt Stone said on Facebook: so I guess this is his first in this series. He says himself about this blog post:


But the post linked in the OP is from June.

As far as the woman in the blog post, it would be nice to see a follow up. Her last blood work numbers seem kind of wonky.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jan-07-12, 08:35
wyatt's Avatar
wyatt wyatt is offline
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Posts: 243
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 235/220/210 Male 6' 3"
BF:
Progress: 60%
Location: SF Bay Area
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after removing sugars / carbs from my diet my fasting blood glucose came down from 106 to 83 this past physical. are you saying I should go back to eating carbs again and put on 30 lbs of body fat, buy new clothes and exacerbate my varicose veins? please let me know ASAP cause I wouldn't mind having a couple apple fritters for breakfast.
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Jan-07-12, 09:16
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
This generally lowers the activity of the sympathetic nervous system, increases thyroid activity, improves glycogen storage, and starts shuttling glucose from ingested food into muscle cells where it creates muscle growth and the generation of heat and energy. This reduces insulin resistance.

No. When cells deplete their glycogen and glucose stores, they become insulin sensitive to allow glucose and glycogen to enter more easily to replenish their fuel stores. Once that's done, they become insulin resistant once more: They don't need anymore fuel.
Quote:
If I am not mistaken she did not lose a single pound of body weight during this time, so any drop in insulin cannot be attributed to weight loss or calorie restriction.

He's got his cause and effect mixed up. Insulin is the cause, and fat mass regulation is the effect. In the quote above, he implies that fat mass regulation is the cause, and insulin level is the effect. What he should have said instead: "Since there was no change in weight even as insulin level dropped significantly, then we cannot conclude from this that insulin is the regulator of body mass". We must keep in mind that he's talking about a single individual, not about a group of people such as found in clinical studies for example. Studies which would otherwise answer such questions.
Quote:
I am still low in iron, which is surprising to me considering I eat red meat, but I think the high RT3 and celiac disease all play a part in this.

Ah HA! Celiac disease plays havok with digestion and fat regulation and appetite. If low iron is evidence of celiac, and if celiac is evidence of wheat intake, and if wheat intake is a singular driver of obesity independently of caloric intake (Wheat Belly), then we can hypothesize that she did not lose weight, in spite of a significant drop in insulin level, because of the wheat still present in her diet.

Note these two values. They are in flagrant conflict:
Quote:
Glucose: 49 (65-100)
HBA1C: 5.9 (4-6)

HbA1c is an indicator of average carb intake over the last 6 months or so. It's pretty high. This implies a significant carb intake, which suggests an error in the lab value for FBG, or a poor compliance with the pre-test protocol (maybe she ate carbs too soon before the test, which could have caused FBG to drop so low during the test, as insulin was bouncing up and down).
Note leptin level and her hypothesis on that matter:
Quote:
Leptin: 21(<20)
I am leptin resistant obviously. Any cure/ideas for that? I have read that it is related to reverse T3, as reverse T3 makes the brain think it is starving and thus leptin resistance.

No. Leptin level is an indicator of leptin resistance, but it's also an indicator of fat mass, i.e. how much fat she has. She didn't lose any weight, therefore the high leptin level is easily explained. Maybe leptin could have dropped if she'd lost weight, but I'm not sure since leptin level might be associated with adipocyte number, but not adipocite content, i.e. the number of fat cells, not the amount of fat in them.
Quote:
If you are still under the influence of low-carb dogma, and believe that eating carbohdyrates will raise your insulin levels, snap out of it. In the right context, carbs are your best metabolic friend, and what passes as science and physiology in the low-carb realm is a complete scientific fairy tale…

That is one big gigantic caveat emptor. People are eating more and more carbs, and we're growing fatter and fatter. Maybe this "right context" is really hard to find.

You know what they say about opinions. Well, mine is always better than theirs. I win.
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Jan-07-12, 09:23
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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I forgot. I'd like to see numbers of her blood pressure.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Jan-07-12, 09:31
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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From the comments:
Quote:
lynn June 8, 2011

Hello all. It's me of the 49 FG fame. I still think that HAD to be a lab error as my home tests are 75-85 in the mornings and I did not feel hypoglycemic when my blood was taken. I used to experience hypos on low carb, so I know how lovely they feel and I didn't feel like that.

No hypos, hey? But she said:
Quote:
Not quite sure why my HBA1C isn’t in the optimal <5.4 range if glucose and insulin are so excellent. HBA1C is an average of blood sugars over a three month period though, so the HBA1C may be lagging behind in terms of including blood sugars from the first few months of RRARF when my blood sugars were a lot higher than they are now.

How can she experience hypos with high FBG?!? She measured her FBG, the hypos she's talking about is not her lab measures. It must be the lethargy and light-headedness and stuff like that. The problem is, those can be caused by other stuff. I'm betting she didn't eat enough fat. So she did not in fact experience "hypos".
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Jan-07-12, 09:38
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Has Matt ever been fat?
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Jan-09-12, 22:27
Requin Requin is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 521
 
Plan: My own.
Stats: 206/194.4/155 Female 5'6"
BF:27.17%
Progress: 23%
Location: Thompson, Manitoba
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I trust my blood glucose monitor more than I trust the studies that other people put out. Starch raises my blood glucose levels, and I don't see the need to raise blood glucose levels. And if she didn't lose any weight, why would I add in more carbs?? Defies logic to me. And, I'm with the people not feeling that an a1c of 5.9 is anything to be proud of.
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