Where does this comes from?

I looked all over my Atkins book and his website, my PP and CALP book and couldn't find any mention of the 10 -12x body weight calorie intake to avoid starvation mode thing I so much read in this board.

I would like to read the theory behind this... can anyone point me to the source of this concept. Thank you very much.

CuteWolf

This was discussed in the following thread yesterday. You can read all about it there:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...&threadid=56993

Nat

p.s. It's a guideline, not a law

But if it's not Dr. A's guideline or law, who's ? It's not in the book...

Biology 101

Basal Metobolic Rate. It's what is needed to support basic body functions such as breathing, digestion, cell regeneration, blinking, heart beating etc etc.

In order for your body NOT to go into a starvation self preservation mode, one must eat enough calories a day to support these body functions. Eating less will insure your body's break down of lean muscle tissue thus slowing your metobolism even more.

If you go into fitday.com, it shows you just how many calories you burn every single day without doing a single exercise.

the problem is that the math don't add up. At least in my case... I weight 314. If I follow this guideline I would have to eat 3,140 cals per day to avoid starvation mode. (10 x 314). I don't think so. According to fitday my basal is 2200. So, what gives.

Now if I calculate my LEAN BODY WEIGHT, not my TOTAL weight, then it will make sense. That's the reason I would like to read the theory behind the concept. I think the "guideline" is not as black and white as portrayed in here.

CuteWolf

ps... I'm a researcher and I get all weird when numbers don't tell me the whole story.

Hi CuteWolf, I gained weight eating LC and force feeding myself with 10-12 times body weight in calories. I listened to my body and made appropriate adjustments--including a vow to never count calories again! I wrote to the Atkins Center a few days ago and asked them this very question about calories. I am awaiting their response and will post it if and when they get back to me.

When I was a low-calorie/low-fat 'dieter,' I used to count calories and every bite of food that went in my mouth to insure I was eating few enough. I cannot save my sanity and count calories at all these days, whether I am counting them to make sure they are up or down! I don't count calories at all so I have no idea how many I consume. I eat fresh, whole, natural LC foods and I stop eating when I feel full. By not force feeding or starving myself in the 7 months I have been eating LC, I have found my real appetite and I feel my metabolism is on its way to total healing.

I think it's 10 to 12 times your GOAL (or ideal) body weight, not your current body weight!

It is your CURRENT weight - it is also a GUIDELINE.

Why 10x calories?

Nat

I think the worst flaw in the 10-12 guideline is: What is one to do on the way down the scale?

Say I start off consuming 2500 calories per day because my start weight is 250. I lose 125 pounds and arrive at my goal weight 125. Now, I must adjust to eating over a thousand less calories per day. I have trained myself to eat a lot during my months of removing the weight, and I have enjoyed eating this quantity of food. My stomach has of course shrunk, but I was used to eating so much food and even forcing some of those calories down; what to do now? I am faced with cutting back. Or do I cut down calorie by calorie as I lose pound by pound and hope for the best that I will be ok living with less calories when I get to goal? This screams 'diet' not healthy WOE to me.

I have found it so much easier to eat till I am full and only count carbs. At the beginning, doing so was terribly confusing, yes. It was not always clear when I was hungry...But within a few weeks of LCing I could actually tell my system was changing and I could sense and read my own appetite.

I see your dilema, Twiggy - but the theory is flawed

You start off at 250 lbs with a lot of body fat and some lean mass - you need to eat to support your muscle and your fat loss, approximately 2000 calories (remember, 10-12x is a guideline for minimal calories). At the outset eating even 2000 calories is difficult - you're just not hungry.

The thing about LC is that because it is protein adequate and if you are eating sufficient calories from fat to sustain metabolism what you lose (reflected on the evil scale) is FAT. This is evident in the nature of losses with LCing - whooshes of scale weight and times when only inches are lost. What is happening? You are building muscle and it is replacing the fat you are losing. What does this mean? You are raising your metabolism. This translates into being able to consume more calories (while weighing less) and still losing.

As you approach your goal / target weight you should be increasing carbs ever so slightly and calories as well to slow loss down. You want to coast into Maintenance, not come crashing down.

At 125 lbs you would only be eating to sustain metabolism if you were still losing fat.

Maintenance calories are that which you can eat w/o gaining or losing weight. Guidelines for Maintenance are 15-18x your body weight (assuming, again, a normal metabolism). 18x 125 is 2250 calories

The general theme I am seeing a lot lately is "Oh NO, 10x my body weight? I can't eat that much" and what you are saying is "At 125 lbs ten times my body weight isn't enough" - but 10x isn't the upper limit, it is the bare minimum for those with a healthy metabolism. There are studies that show consistently eating less than 1300-1400 calories a day will permanently slow your metabolism. This means that you're stuck at that level of calories forever if you want to keep the weight off. That isn't living!

Nat

Well, I'm going to share my experience and throw it to the discussion mix. I started locarbing Nov 2000 at 385 pounds. I went thru the first 40 pounds in 4 months with no problem at all just following induction guidelines with NO idea whatsover of how many calories I consumed. Didn't count protein either. I ate meat, eggs, green stuff and cheese and coffee and life was good. Took me 8 months to get rid of the next 30 pounds. Getting worried there but kept going. Still no idea of calories.. I had to learn to be patient and life was still good. Beginning of this year I hit 304. So damn close to a mayor goal!!! But then all hell broke loose, went back up to 310 with NO REASON and that was the beginning of this stupid BIG STALL I'm dealing with now.
I've tried every stall breaker I read about and nothing. Went to the Dr and check metabolism, thyroid, all normal.
Atkins mention in his book that sometimes is good to just go away from his diet to some other diet to break the cycle. Well, I went totally vegetarian for 3 weeks. Hated every second of those 3 weeks, felt miserable, sugar off the chart and hit 320. No good, back to lo carb. Went back to Induction and went back to 314 and stuck again. That's when I signed up to this group and fitday.

Read about the 10x... for me that would be around 3140 cals per day. Now, I didn't get this big eating like a pigeon, You won't hear me saying...oh no, I can't eat that much. I definitely can. the problem is ... I'm still not losing. I asked for input in my fitday journal and was told by Terrydoodle that the 10x don't apply to 100+ (over) folks. She also mentioned I should control proteins.
Well, I dropped an average of 1,000 cals per day. Now I eat between 2300 - 2500 cals a day, which by the way is 10x my Lean Body Mass And guess what? I've lost 4 pounds in a week. I even got some "peesticks" and they are showing a nice shade of pink. Life is starting to be really good again.

And that's my story. At least for my experience, the 10x cals total body weight didn't fly. Maybe for big folks like me Lean Body Mass seems to be a more accurate guideline.

One important detail I need to mention... the only change I've made is amount and proportions of what I eat and NOT what I eat. I still eat meat, cheese, eggs, green stuff and coffee just a 1000 cals less of them.

Thank you Nat for the links to discussions about this subject. I enjoyed reading them.

CuteWolf

Hey I've been reading all these posts and was wondering how I could find out my lean body mass? I've never heard of it before!!

Thankyou! xx

Sorry don't worry about it - I looked it up on the net.

Nat, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I have seen the results of the evil scale barely reflecting weight loss, yet I have gone from a size 12 to a size 6 and/or 4. There is definitely something to be said for metabolism adjusting, healing, muscle building and being able to tolerate and even function better at a higher calorie consumption.

My question about the 10-12 guideline might be better asked as: Is the 10-12 guideline therefore always related to one's start weight? Going back to my example: The lowcarber starts at 250 lbs.. She follows the guideline and consumes 2500 calories per day. She loses half her body weight and arrives at goal of 125. Follwing maintaince guidelines at 15-18x, she is still eating around the same amount of calories she began with. My goal is 125, but I began my LC journey at a top weight of 150 lbs. Even at her new weight she still is allowed to/has to eat more calories than I do because my start weight was so much lower than hers. Since my start weight times 10-12 would have put me at a lower calorie allotment to begin with, but at my goal weight I am the same as her, she should always consume more and I should always consume less?

I do understand that the 10-12 idea is a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. But which weight during what part of the journey on LC really applies and why should start weight, i.e., heaviest weight,dictate what the metabolism can bear calorically?

Twiggy, if only it were an exact science

The best advice I have seen given is to start with the basics (12x) and see how that works. If it doesn't move down (11x). If that's not working move further (10x). In otherwords, find that 'zone' that works for you. If you're 300 lbs it may very well be 8x. But I can assure you it's not going to be 3x (which is something we see here).

It's fair to say that if someone is coming from a protein inadequate/ low calorie / low fat diet they are going to have some metabolic healing to do. Insulin resistance could be sky high. This was my case. At 245 lbs just eating 1800 calories took me all day long, and a lot of butter. 70 lbs later I now eat 2400, and it's not just a function of being more active. It's a function of a metabolism that now works like it should. It's a function of 140 lbs of lean muscle mass that needs to be fueled. It's because of LCing

When you hear us push "eat, eat, eat" it's to ensure that at least some of that message gets through - This forum is unlike any other I have visited in that it's more interested in your health than your quick and speedy fat loss.

My assumption in the case you described would boil down to this: at 150 lbs your metabolism would be less likely to be as out of whack as a 250 lb woman's. Eating 1500 calories might be too little for you (it is for many of our members), 1800 might suit you better. Or you might be like Jeanner and need 2300 Guidelines are just a starting point - there are always going to be the exceptions.

I think the only way to determine where you should start is to pick something that is at least healthy and see how you feel. Healthy for me would be 1600-1800 calories - and most days I'm starving on that!

Cutewolf - I think you need to re-read this thread - No one ever said "sit down and eat 10x your weight in calories, or else" It's a guideline to provide people with information who are trying to get by on 1000 calories a day thinking it's OK. The fact that you are now eating a healthy amount of food and losing weight is wonderful. This is a sure way to stay healthy and continue to lose. It's also quite possible that having lost such a considerable amount of weight you were going to stall for a while regardless of what you ate - bodies need a 'time out'.

Kate- head over to the BFL forum (under Exercise) there is a thread stuck at the top called "LC and BFL: tips and hints" You'll find a few links in the first post which lead to BF (body fat) calculators - that will give you your Lean Body Mass (LBM).

Twiggy - I'm not really sure I answered you, I'm not really sure there is a definitive answer.

Nat

Nat

I'm perfectly capable to read and understand what I'm reading. I can point you to multiple threads in which people comment about their plateus and the FIRST reply they get is ... make sure you eat 10-12x times your body weight in cals.

I just asked for the theory behind this "guideline"... thanks for your opinion.

CuteWolf