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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 07:02
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,892
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default The Antioxidant Myth

Bummer.
Interesting article by Dr Georgia Ede in Psychology Today.
Net down: Antioxident supplements or foods pretty much worthless.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...tioxidant-myth?

Companion piece on Cooling Brain Inflammation Naturally with Food

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...naturally-food?
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 07:08
cshepard cshepard is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 359
 
Plan: Atkins - maintenance
Stats: 156/123/125 Female 64"
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: BC, Canada
Default

Why a bummer? I like information that debunks what industry is selling us so I can save my money. If our bodies can function optimally on our excellent LCHF diet then more power to us!
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 07:17
Just Jo's Avatar
Just Jo Just Jo is offline
A'72 Lifer Hard Core
Posts: 14,229
 
Plan: A'72 Induction Lifer + IF
Stats: 265/114/130 Female 5'4"
BF:Not so much now!
Progress: 112%
Location: South Central New Mexico
Default

JMO, I think the bummer uttered by Janet is that a lot of people think Antioxidant = helps us fight cancer and other diseases...

Edited to add: at least that's what "they" want us to believe...

Slap me down, Janet, if Imma wrong, b/c I'd never wanna put words in your mouth...
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  #4   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 09:58
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,061
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

I think the "bummer" is that so many are drawn in by the marketing of these products where people are spending lots of money for things that are actually damaging to one's health. Interesting comment on one of these antioxidant products:

Quote:
Worse yet is Pom Wonderful. This pomegranate-pushing company wants you to believe that their very expensive, sexy bottle of colorful, all-natural juice is just bursting with “relentlessly ravenous, free-radical-annihilating antioxidants” that will help protect you from cancer and aging.

Yes, Pom Wonderful is loaded with antioxidants—ellagitannins and anthocyanins, to be exact. But what percentage of the miraculous antioxidants within Pom Wonderful can we absorb into our bodies? Only about 0.2% (or 2/1000th) of the anthocyanins are absorbed, and the ellagitannins are transformed into something else before we have a chance to even try to absorb them.

So, what do you actually absorb from that 8-ounce curvaceous bottle of purple liquid? A whopping 32 grams of sugar—a powerful promoter of oxidation! You are in fact shelling out your hard-earned money to buy the OPPOSITE of what you were told you would get. Pom Wonderful does NOT fight free radicals—it literally causes more free radicals to form, increasing oxidative damage inside your body. Every time you drink it, you are accelerating aging and increasing your risk for cancer, diabetes, weight gain and dementia. And Pom Wonderful is just one example of this dangerous snake oil marketing strategy. Any antioxidant supplement, beverage, extract or food that contains sugar promotes oxidation.
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 10:12
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cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
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Location: Vermont
Default

This is why I stick with single ingredient whole foods and try to maximize their nutrient density. Marty Kendall is a good source for this information. I do take supplements but not in lieu of maximizing the quality of my diet. I consider my diet to be the foundation of my health and the supplements to be an added insurance policy. The value of the food I am sure of. The value of the supplements less so although vitamin D and magnesium do seem to be essential for me and probably fish oil for the omega 3's. I don't believe in magic pills or quick fixes

Jean
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 11:32
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/183/160 Female 5'4"
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Location: Texas
Default

I agree that real foods with real nutrients are the only way to go.
I just don't understand how people could think that what's
in a pill is equal to nutrients in food or in lieu of food
with real nutrients.
I too eat single ingredients foods like one meat and one veggie...and butter of course
I've never gotten into those complicated fake baked LC recipes.

Her article made so much sense about removing certain
bad things from our diet rather than always looking
for a miracle cure.
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  #7   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 12:46
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,061
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
I agree that real foods with real nutrients are the only way to go.
I just don't understand how people could think that what's
in a pill is equal to nutrients in food or in lieu of food
with real nutrients.

An interesting transition on the perception of what is healthy seems to have been made in the 20th and 21st centuries where we are now favoring pills over real food. Why? I believe that with the advent and advances in pharmaceuticals where some pills have saved or prolonged lives, we are now prone to view pills, liquids, or other substances that are not whole foods as keys to health. This includes supplements, as we no longer understand the critical health contributions of a diet of whole, unprocessed foods. We're looking for the easy button in pills and other supplements. The marketing of these products is simply reinforcing this perception.
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  #8   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 12:50
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nawchem nawchem is offline
Senior Member
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 163.5/155.0/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/28.4/27.3
Progress: 59%
Default

I was diagnosed with asthma 8 months ago. I looked into studies of what might help, although antioxidants are pushed I couldn't find a study that showed that they helped.

My inhaler has steroids in it when I got my first cold I used the zinc tabs that usually keep it from being more than fatigue and nothing worked. It took 2 weeks to get over and I was very sick the first week. The doctor prescribed more steriods which didn't work.

2nd cold hits, I drank green tea with antioxidants. It knocked the cold right out. The Kumeyaay Indian tribe settled in my area at least 6,000 years ago. There are informational signs, where a cave painting was found, explaining how these Indians used various plants in the area to make teas for illness. Some of those plants are in my tea.

I'm only 1 person with 1 success but I was amazed and happy with the results.

Last edited by nawchem : Sun, Dec-31-17 at 13:06.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Jan-01-18, 05:49
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,892
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Jo... totally correct explanation of my bummer. As a cancer survivor I do take antioxidants mainly in the form of extra vitamins, Vit C, etc. I occasionally try others...in fact just finished a bottle of turmeric hoping it would help knee pain (didn’t, she,s right...don’t bother with that one ) There are some cancer nutritionists who promote a long list of antioxidant foods and supplements.
My DH's optometrist suggested us old folks take Lutein & Zeaxanthin for eye health. Even though the brand bottle raves about it’s bioavailability ... that too might be an expensive Nothing.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 05:34
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
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Progress: 84%
Location: USA
Default

Hmmm... seems to me the article is debunking certain over-hyped sources of antioxidants more than antioxidants themselves.

For months now I have been battling a stress-induced hives breakout (lots of areas from the collarbones down, tips of ears, even a spot on my lip!) which turned into stress eczema and made my life miserable. My doctor tried steroid creams, oral steroids, serious moisturizers, antihistamines of various kinds... nothing worked to make them actually go away.

Until I started taking a Quercetin-Bromelain Complex. Quercetin is a super antioxidant. And now, at last, the maddening itching is fading and the skin is healing.

So I can't be against antioxidants
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 06:59
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teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: ketosis/IF
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Default

But how do you know the effect isn't from the bromelain? There are studies looking at antiinflammatory effects of bromelain.

If you look at something like lipoic acid--sure it's an antioxidant, but it also serves a vitamin-like function--if we couldn't make our own, there would likely be a dietary requirement. Same with CoQ10. Vitamin c and beta carotene--functions in the body that go beyond just reducing oxidative stress. A lot of the time the benefit from these antioxidants is enzyme mediated, it's not just about reduction vs. oxidation, controlled reduction and oxidation is crucial. So if quercetin helps you, there's still the question of why, what metabolic pathways specifically might it interact with.

I do think there's a problem with lumping in antioxidants as a class, sort of like the problem with the whole acid/alkaline diet thing. Sure we need some alkaline nutrients. But it makes more sense to look at our need for potassium, sodium, magnesium, calcium etc. as individual nutrients rather than as a class of nutrients.

A lot of the phytonutrient studies in rodents that show promise use crazy high doses. The amount of wine you'd have to drink to match the resveratrol given to mice is beyond human capacity, Blueberry studies use the peel or leaf extracts, allowing for doses far beyond what you can get eating blueberries. Studies show pharmacological effects at pharmacological doses, then people use these as evidence that they should wash down blueberries with red wine, when the effectiveness depends on homeopathic doses of the relevant metabolites. I read an article the other day on Flex magazine suggesting mustard, because rodents fed mustard steroids became more muscular. I found another article looking at levels of this steroid in plants and the amounts fed to rodents. The levels in plants was expressed in micrograms per kilogram plant matter, the doses for the animals was given as milligrams per kilogram of rodent.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 07:10
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bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Maintaining
Posts: 3,192
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 62 inches
BF:25% (up from 22%)
Progress: 100%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
Default

Supplements are tricky. I have a high acid stomach and very alkaline body. Taking any supplement with "acid" in the title gives me horrible stomach pain. My cure for GERD (in the old days when I had it) was fresh apple.

When I took probiotics, I had disturbing bowel distress for a long time after stopping.

Guess what I'm saying is that every body's needs are determined by its present state.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 07:19
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walnut walnut is offline
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Plan: C:12 P:60 F:satiety
Stats: 220/185/142 Female 5'5
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Progress: 45%
Location: canada, eh!
Default

I would be fubared without antioxidants. I came up with a cocktail of several different antioxidant supplements that I take if I get a flare-up of my rheumatoid arthritis. It works better than anything my doc wanted me to take.

I saw the Georgia ede article the other day and when I was researching Jo Robinson's book about how to choose foods based on highest phytonutrient/antioxidant values I saw other articles that said the same thing. From personal experience I am going to keep choosing to take extra antioxidants and will grow food in my garden with the highest orac score I can find....
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Jan-04-18, 07:38
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cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Posts: 3,816
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by walnut
I would be fubared without antioxidants. I came up with a cocktail of several different antioxidant supplements that I take if I get a flare-up of my rheumatoid arthritis. It works better than anything my doc wanted me to take.

I saw the Georgia ede article the other day and when I was researching Jo Robinson's book about how to choose foods based on highest phytonutrient/antioxidant values I saw other articles that said the same thing. From personal experience I am going to keep choosing to take extra antioxidants and will grow food in my garden with the highest orac score I can find....


Dr Wahls protocol is based on the same kind of principals. She found supplements helpful. They slowed down her decline from MS but real progress was made when she added lots of different vegetables providing an array of micro-nutrients.

Jean
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Jan-05-18, 15:15
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
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Progress: 84%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
But how do you know the effect isn't from the bromelain?


I don't, of course Though I did take Betaine HCL because I had trouble with digestion. Might not be similar, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
Dr Wahls protocol is based on the same kind of principals. She found supplements helpful. They slowed down her decline from MS but real progress was made when she added lots of different vegetables providing an array of micro-nutrients.

Jean


That makes sense to me because how can we add in what we don't know is missing?

Last edited by WereBear : Sat, Jan-06-18 at 10:31.
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