I would have to fall in to this school of thought/experience/theory also. While I sometimes just don't want that second meal, I do believe that I lose better and feel better when I have it. I am definitely losing weight eating this way and see no reason to alter my plan, and my energy is through the roof. Tried M&E and fat fast, couldn't make it through one day on either. They both felt completely unnatural and undesirable as a way of eating.

ETA: I've never had a food dream unless it was related to what I was going to prepare for a party.

I am willing to bet that this blog has been posted on this thread already but who's going to look for it? I love this blog entry by Dr. Eades and I want to share it again

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/...tosis/#more-719

That is a really great post and explains a lot. I'm going to bookmark it. However, I just wish I knew "how much" fat would optimize that reaction. It seems that if we know, roughly, how much glucose the body needs per day, we know how much dietary protein will cover that, then how much dietary fat does it take to optimize the process??

The "fat will take care of itself" just doesn't cut it for me.

And do we need to eat even more protein to cover the maintenance of the lean body mass, or does the 42% of the total protein intake that isn't used in the gluconeogenesis cover it?

Anyway, I wonder if the "perfect" diet consists of, for the "person" in his article, based on the 60g carbs in his article, 78-94 grams of protein, and 150 grams of fat? (I can explain how I came to those numbers if anyone wants me to.)

How much pure body fat be burned in a day?

Interestingly, this is pretty close to what I eat in protein and fat, but not in carbs, and I'm losing an average of .3 pounds per day, even being pretty close to my "ideal" weight. But if I'm losing .3 pound of muscle a day, as he indicated could happen, which certainly explains my loss each day here lately, then I'm most certainly alarmed.

They occur if I am hungry at bedtime or awake hungry. They usually indicate weight loss. I had them during induction and a few times after-- usually carb dreams like pizza, bread or CrackerJacks, I haven't had the latter since I was a kid. I sometimes have bathroom dreams to, at least until I eventually awake and visit the toilet

The ~0.75 mg melatonin I take at night often leads to vivid dreams though

Its cold and windy here today, my appetite returned with the Winter weather. I was out shopping earlier and had a whole sausage link then some hot buffalo wings.

You're not alone Gwynne - this window works best for me too. I usually eat around 2:30/3p and again about 7/8p. Going 20/4 or 21/3 was causing me a lot of unwanted side effects - from gas to chest pains and it was uncomfortable and frightening!
I just have to have fuel for the amount of exercising my overweight behind is doing on a regular basis (3-5 times a week).
While my weight loss has not been spectacular (thanks peanut butter!) since I opened the window, I feel/measure a huge difference in inches! Even though I am still flirting around 190, my clothes are getting loose again and I went shopping and was able to buy smaller sizes!
I was wondering if I was still IF'ing opening my window so large - but it appears for some, it works

not sure if this is true IF'ing, but this last week I have been having breakfast (high fat , low carb) at around 8-8.30am, skipping lunch and then having a fat heavy , but not so big meal depending on day and work schedule between 3pm - 4.30pm. Then maybe a little something (like cheese crisps) around 6pm or 7pm if I'm still hungry. Though yesterday was day 4 and I didn't need the later 'little something'. So far i have lost 3lbs in four days (this is the excess water weight that i put on after a party on friday that went onto sat !)
In response to gwynne, i found that i was 'shutting' down too even doingthe 17/18 hr fasts - i was so cold and after the inital 5lb loss it all stopped and i put it all back on aagin far too quickly. Everyone is different and i also know that mybody adapts far too quickly and goes into efficient fat saving mode. So this is working for me this week and i might find that i will have to change it all up again and do something slightly different. However, going longer periods without eating is def better than the old 6 small meals a day thing for me as i have NO portion control wotsoever. This way , i can keep my calories in check and not feel like a chore or starving etc.

I had some problems here with the electricity going off and my schedule got disrupted. I ended up quickly gaining several pounds and now I am working on re-training my body for regular IF. I find if I eat a little in the mornings I still get just as hungry before dinner, but not so much during the day and I seem to have more energy. I also can eat less at night. When your body gets at "set point" things can change. For awhile I felt too hungry in the late afternoons to function well and too stuffed after a full dinner to do much of anything either. The eating until you get "meat drunk" may work well for a caveman or wolf, but can be impractical for modern living.

I don't like eating too much food at once especially in hot weather, so I may modify my program when Summer hits. I find a whey protein shake helps a great deal to add protein without all the added bulk of eating a large portion of meat. Fish is also high in protein, healthy and not too filling.

I think why we, or at least I, didn't start with Ramadan style fasting was because The Eades plunged right in with alternating fasts, and I tried following their example. And the 24 fast seemed to give the required self-control to overanxious appetites. So I spent 2 weeks on the Eades style fasting and gained mastery over snacking, multi meals and the obnoxious clock. Then I switched to the less restrictive "fast overnight till at least noon" method, and found with delight that the noon meal could be postponed till late in the afternoon most days. But then I noticed that hubby and I were rapidly losing energy, even as my blood sugar rose. By 8:00pm we'd be looking longingly towards the bedroom, and soon went. Nor did we arise much before 7:30 or 8:00 am. Soon even the reduced meal preparation that I did do was getting to be too much trouble. It took me a while to realize that it WASN'T my seasonal onset of allergies - I was in starvation mode, and I couldn't eat enough calories at that point to replenish my energy stores. So I quit fasting. Then I went back and reread those articles. Ramadan fasters went from sunup to sundown w/o eating or drinking. That's too extreme for me - I need to drink during the daytime. But their refraining from food was only about 12-13 hours, about as long as an early bedtime and late rising would cover, with the addition of a late breakfast. Hmmm. But it didn't mention the dawn phenomenom, in which the liver starts manufacturing more sugar after hours of sleep. Maybe they were still eating just before dawn? Whatever, their health markers improved after 4 weeks. After 4 weeks, mine were going the wrong way. I still think the occasional fast can be beneficial, but my body is the final arbiter. I shall look further.

From what I understand (not participating in Ramadan myself, but knowing a few people who do) they actually do get up at 4 - 5 - 6am and have breakfast before the sun rises to set them up for the day of fasting. So really they wake, have breakfast super early, fast for 12 - 15 hours eat for several hours, then sleep not too long after their feasts finish - the feasts lasting for several hours as the extended family and friends congregate.

My intermittent fasting is on hold until I get my stomach sorted out. The gastroscopy returned a result of gastritis, but the rotten swine didn't put in the pathology request to test my biopsy to see if the gastritis was caused by bacterial infection or not.. so all in all a wasted biopsy.

My GP and I decided to just go ahead and treat on the assumption it is bacterial seeing as I'm pretty young for it to be any of the other factors, but I've got to tell you.. if I didn't know better I'd be starting to think I was pregnant what with the horrible nausea I've been getting. The only slight fix I've found, other than chowing down on a bunch of antacids and buscopan is to eat .. and eat heaps.

I'll get back there eventually, I just wish it's sooner rather than later.

I believe that during Ramadan, it's pretty usual to wake early and have a small meal just before dawn, and another smallish meal just after sundown, with a big dinner following later at night. This is from a friend who spent several years in Jordan.

I doubt muscle can be lost in the absence of persistent hunger on a LC diet.Good article, but when fasting for 24 - 48 hrs the protein needed to make glucose comes from reserves, mainly blood plasma. I understand muscle is used as a last resort.

As far as the amount of fat that can be burned in a day, I would say none without a calorie defect or if glycogen is available. Under ideal losing conditions? I am not sure anyone knows-- again it may be an individual issue.

I'm running into an interesting/annoying problem with my new graveyard shift. I'm on about the third week, my sleeping is more or less adapted, but my appetite is all messed up.

I sleep till about 6pm, then am up and at home, then work midnight-8am.

The problem is that I have no appetite during most of my waking hours, and it's been very hard to get enough calories down. My stomach doesn't really 'wake up' till almost the end of my shift...after which I usually try to go to bed.

Wouldn't I be defeating a lot of the purpose if my main meal time was pretty close to going to bed?

Not sure what else to do--I'm having to supplement with coconut oil and cream to try to get my calories up, and I know I'm not hitting a minimun protein level (ended up having a protein shake last night after my dinner to try to help). While theoretically this kind of appetite suppression is something I've always wanted to have, the extent of it right now doesn't seem like a good thing. It's not as if the weight is melting off either, so I'm pretty sure my metabolism is not happy.

Gwynne, so many studies suggest that it doesn't matter what time you eat that I wouldn't worry about it. Frankly, if I could eat a big meal right before bed, I would sleep a heck of a lot better. Just go with it, give it plenty of time and see what happens. I personally believe it still comes down to calories in/out (although I do think it makes a difference what those calories are comprised of, meaning not grains). I wouldn't let my calories get too low but, at the same time, I wouldn't force myself to bump them up but so much. Keep us posted.

This may or may not be seen as a helpful comment, but it's meant to be so please take it in the spirit in which it is provided, I'm leaving it as a general comment not directed at anyone in particular:

Obsessing about the speed or lack thereof of weight loss is completely counter productive to the actual goals of a LC WOE/WOL. All it does it make you miserable and focusing on what you perceive to be negatives, and increases your stress levels which in turn increases your cortisol levels which is a fat storage hormone. Likewise negatively assessing your body constantly is counter productive..

Just keep the faith that what you are doing is the best thing you can to nourish and look after yourself and a change in body size really isn't the ultimate goal (although yes, it is nice). Once you start thinking about, and treating your body with respect and nurturing it will let go of what it doesn't need at it's own pace, stressing, worrying and focusing on it only serves to make you miserable.