Well Bluesmoke, it sounds like ...yourslef, isn't it. I bet you were told way too many times that you are on your way to an early grave before this WOE too? But now of ocurse, you know EVERYTHING about benefits of living in ketosis!All ppl may confuse reality with their wishes regardless of the diet plan, you may think that you are doing your body a favor by eating no carbs, while I think that I'm doing right thing eating some. I don't insist that you shoul eat carbs, please, don't but don't tell me that I can't do it either
I should probably clarify this: I don't believe in any "studies" and "evidence" that associate our ancestor's lived millions years ago with ketogenic diet. They indeed been in ketosis for the most part of their life due to food shortage, not deliberatly avoiding carbs. LOL As for some links I provided, it's mostly since my opponent denied very well known fatcs. There is a slight difference in the studies performed in the past 50 years and anecdotal "evidence" of perfect health and associated diet of prehistorical (before agriculture) humans. These studies I don't found creditable, it's all speculations. BTW, you've been low carbing since May 2002, it's about 2.5 years and only lost 74 pounds, more than a modest weight loss on a very low carb diet. I've lost 35 pounds literally in 2 month at the begining by just watching not only carbs, but mostly fat intake.
Dina

Yup, I've noticed that your method of discussion is personal attack rather that backing up what you post with facts. I never claimed to be eating no carbs, that is your statement. You are so defensive about eating such things as fruit, maybe you know that it isn't good for you, but you just want to do it?
I'm not in competition with anyone to lose weight, if you think how much you lose is the only important thing, you're in for trouble down the road.
The second part of your post precisely illustrates the problem with your thought processes. You choose not to believe anything that doesn't agree with what you want to be true. That's not science, that is religion. I don't care what you believe, reality is it's own reward. Nyah Levi

Well, I can provide anoterh 100 of links but this one has a very good information on the diabetes. http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/...background.html
BTW, I have a female freind, not overweight, without a family history of the desease, she got a sudden onset of type 2 diabetes after a tragic death of her only son. Believe it or not. IMHO, constant emotional and physical stress can be a major risk factor of many deseases, from heart to diabetes and even, cancer.
Then it's really hard to understand your position, apprently, it's the showmaker without shoes situation.
Nothing to be sorry about, at least, for me . I remember in one of your posts you stated that you hate to exercise and to sweat, so this explains it. I hope you diet will work for you in a long term too, without health problems and complications. No one can tell, what is around the corner for sure, we just can try to do our best. It's actually a proven fact that while we all benefit from exercise in our youth, it's a must once we turn 40, especially females. I sure hope that as you children get older and more independent, you will have some time to spare and find that exercise can be as addictive as ...smoking with much better results!
Best of luck,
Dina

Thank you for the information, Dina, but nowhere in the link you provided did it say that stress in and of itself can cause diabetes. In fact, this is what it did say:

So you assertion that stress was the only causative factor in your developing type 2 diabetes is not in line with that science currently knows about this disease. You seem very vested in believing that your dietary habits had nothing to do with it.
In the case of your friend, true type 2 diabetes does not literally develop overnight or even in the space of a few weeks. What she may have experienced is something known as Secondary Diabetes which usually goes away when the underlying cause is discovered and treated: http://my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide...navbar=hw135192
High levels of cortisol (a stress hormone) can contribute to secondary diabetes, but unless the stress is continuous and never relieved, it usually reverses when cortisol levels return to normal after the stress. If she truly has type 2, then there was more going on than you realize or are reporting. Chronic elevated levels of stress hormones can indeed cause multiple health problems. I do hope you find a way to reduce your stress level in the near future.



I have no idea what point you were trying to make with this. Perhaps you can clarify?



Dina, I've already stated that I do exercise...30 minutes a day at a brisk walk, except on days like today where the wind chill was 10 below zero. I'm not sure why you seem to think that an hour would be better, but IMO trading chronic sleep deprivation for an extra 30 minutes of exercise isn't such a great tradeoff since it leads to.....chronic elevated levels of stress hormones.

Perhaps, you've overlooked this.
My dietary habits has nothing to do with this dx, I wasn't carb and sugar junky, I wasn't overweight as I stated before. I have to repeat myslef, that diabetes is a combination of factors, not just diet per se, unless one abuses processed carbs and and sugar, which was not in my case. Otherwise, I'd be not 40 pounds overweight like I was, but would be somewhere around 250-300 pounds in my 30s and dx mush earlier. Not all overweight ppl are diabetics, you should know it. When I was in my 20s, most women in their 40 and 50s were what we called pleasantly plump but were not diabetics. Most had abdomenal (insulin) roll, and still no diabetes. They just belonged to post-war generation, those who were children and were constatly hungry,and couldn't deal with food later in life. My mother was always "big" women, having abdomenal obesity and was on continuous "diabetes" watch, and yet, was totally fine untill very recently. But she was around 220 pounds, loved bread, never exercised on the excuse of being too busy, and did not know how to push the table away. Even now, her Hb1C ranges 5.8-6.2% (mostly times below 6%) and her FBG is usually around 110. But she definetely spikles much higher after a meal. She doesn't take any medications, just eats less carbs and no sweets at all. For her age it's perfectly OK to have some blood sugar fluctuations, it's better have it slightly high than low for seniors. She blames herself in eating way too many sweets and processed food since we came here, you know older folks sometimes aquire sweet tooth, even if they never had it before. So, in her case it's diet and age related. I was complete opposite, watched my weight, was very careful with carbs and fat. I was amazed that my FBG was in diabetic range (recently lowered) and so was my GP. Even at 194 I was size 12. I still don't blame my dietary habits in general, I blame myself of eating more meat and fat, was more than I've used to, eating much more calories than I could burn. I blame myslef for buying all this Weston Price propaganda of how meat and saturated fats are good for you, and how they all eat at least, 3000 calories a day. I also blame myself for not quitting smoking much earlier. But I do not blame eating fruit in my dx!
She is in a medical field and her husband is very well respected doctor, so I doubt she had undiscovered and untreated diabetes before. Not sure if diabetes happened to her overnight, it was just fe month after the tragedy.
Continious stress will raise cortisol level even in non-diabetic person. High cortisol will mess up your metabolism, increase appetite, contribute to weight gain and visceral fat acuumulation. These are perfect conditions for diabetes.
I didn't say I'm still under a great deal of stress, I said it took few years of a very high level of stress combined with lack of sleep, changes in lifestyle, eating more protein/fat and being perimenopausal to develop this dx. I've found my way of dealing with stress via life style changes and exercise, so I don't need to light a cig. to get a relive. Also, established carrier with just 40 hours of work and ability to sleep 8-9 hours at night, make me feel pretty good now.

I think that having a medical degree from nursing would in some way makes you a bit more aware of importance of proper diet, exercise and not smoking for a good health.
I also meant some resistance training in addition to walking. I can imagine that weather in Michigan does not permit walking on a regular basis either, meaning cold winter and hot humid summer Again, it's up to you, you do watever you think it's right for you, diet and exercise wise. If exercise will leave you sleep deprived, then don't. Simple as this, I personally, do not care what ppl eat and hiow much they exercise, I state what I think is right for me, and don't force my opnion on anyone else.
You stated that I would have to reduce my carbs if my energy requirements would change, but eating 100 or less cabrs a day is already less than a minimum required for even a sedentary lifestyle. Dr.Shwarzbein emphazises that if one's very sedentary, the minimum carbs per meal should be 15g, and 7 g for a snack. If one is active, the amount per meal can be doubled, so it is for a snack. She also talks aobut danger of ketosis, and I agree with her. So, I don't understand why you are forcing me to accept that my diet/lifestyle is harmfull for my health? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether they been through nursing school or not. You believe that exercise is not a requirement, that fruit is an evil food, and I think that living in ketosis for the rest of my life is not much better alternative. Hopefully, we both will be well in 10 years, so we can find out what is better.
I'm done here, it's getting boring and all these arguments are getting us nowhere.
Cheers.
Dina

Dina, everyone is definitely entitled to their own opinion and I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree on our respective opinions as it's clear that neither of us is going to change the others mind. I've never once stated that I thought excercise was unnecessary, only that hours a day (as you seem to do both in your daily job and additional exercise) is impractical for the majority of people and that 30 minutes a day doing what you can manage is better than none at all. I'm not willing to exercise 2 hours a day just so that I can increase my carb intake; it's just not worth it to me for that reason, nor do I have the time in my schedule for it. I've also never said that I thought that sweet fruit was evil, only that I don't believe it to be necessary on a regular basis for good health and and that it is more likely problematic for a good number of people in anything other than small, occasional quantities. I hope you continue to do well with your chosen lifestyle.

What I should have said was that 4-6 oz. was the recommended amount of protein per meal and then, yes, you can make adjustments up or down depending on goals (if you want weight-loss or not), feelings of satiation, etc. Thanks for clarifying, Lisa.

My point was that Bernstein doesn't advocate huge slabs of meat in unlimited amounts if you want to maintain BG control as was being alluded to.

Just a clarification, Lisa:
I've never said that one should exercise 2 hours a day, I never do it myself. An hour a day is my limit. As for my work being physicaly demanding, it's not everyday either. It's not what I consider exercise: it doesn't get my heart rate up and I don't lift weights. Of course, it helps to keep up with a 10,000 steps a day but this is pretty much it. Actually, it rather makes me tired than energized, as I feel after my regular exercise . So, again, just to make sure it's clear, I'm an not a jym junky and I don't exercise so I can increase my carb intake. My exercise regimen started before I was Dx, and I'm not going to give it up.
I deliberatly eat more carbs to stay out of ketosis because it makes me feel horrible physically and mentally, even without exercise, and my FBG was running higher on 30 g a day. And yes, I'm absolutely positive that staying in ketosis for the rest of my life is not only uncomfortable but also is not healthy. I hope it's all clear now.

G'day dina,
If you induction low carb for long enough - probably more than eighteen months, you seem to gradually slip out of measurable ketosis. I think it must be because your mitochondria adapt to burning mainly FFA's not ketones, and certainly not glucose - even in all but the most intense exercise. I must admit that even when I was in measurable ketosis, the experience was far preferable to my glucose burning days. My brain definitely prefers ketones to glucose, as does my (and your) heart, and who knows what else. From my reading of the low carb literature there is a fairly even balance of positive and negative experiences from even the early days of ketosis, particularly if you consume heaps of the leafyest of the green leafy vegetables - like the often discarded outer leaves of lettuce, and give sweet fruit a very wide birth. I'm sorry you did not find ketosis a positive experience. And it's a pity you think it's unhealthy. IMHO it is considerably healthier than glucose metabolism. If you reduce your carbs at all, you are definitely ahead in the health stakes, but don't kid yourself that apart from the taste variety, any amount of sweet fruit is doing you any good. But I'd be the first to admit that ripe sweet fruit certainly looks healthy .

Hi Fatburner:
I can't stress enough that I believe that carb restriction in forms of processed sugars and starches and even some natural sweeteeners is abolutely a must if one wants to achieve optimal health. In fact, I 've argued enough with my family trying to force them to adapt a very low carb diet, which I've been following for about a year and a half. As the matter of fact, I've even sacrificed my favorite fruit likes apple. But the outcome wasn't as good as I've expected, increasing fat in my diet made me regained some of the weight I've lost during my first phases of lower carbs, lower fat and high fiber diet. Nor it made any siginificant improvement in my blood sugar control, au contrary, my fasting blood glucose was constantly higher than before, my Hb1C started climbing too. Add to all of these being tired, slugish, irritable, moody, fearfull, panicky, do I need to continue? My family couldn't recognise me, I felt like I'm losing my mind, and it made me thinking that I'm doing something wrong. I know my body would never lie to me, and it was trying to tell me that something was really wrong. So, after struggling about 1.5 y, I've finally came to a conslusion that ketogenic diet just doesn't suit my metabolism. Believe it or not, we all are born with our metabolic blueprint, which is unique as our fingerprints. Ever heard of Metabilic Typing Diet? I came across this book while browsing Dr.Mercola site. So, I've bought it and it was interesting and eye opening reading for me. I've filled the questionary, and it turned out that I'm not Protein or Carbohydrate type, I'm Mixed type. While Protein type can thrive eating protin/fat only, adn Carb type needs 60-70 % of calories from cabrs, Mixed type needs some carbs and some fat to function with an adequate protein. So, I've added more carbs and some fruit back to my diet, at the same time I've reduced fat, especially saturated in form of butter and cream, and bingo, my weight loss resumed and more important, I've become my old self again, no more panic attacks, my digestion improved, and my energy level skyrocketed. Methabolic differences are largely overlooked and underestimated when we talk about diets and nutriotion. There is no One Type FIT ALL diet, no matter how hard some are trying to prove otherwise. With all my respect, I know what is better for my body, and you definetely, know what makes you feel great. While you are very efficient fat burner, I'm better when burn some fat and some carbs for fuel, staying out from meaurable ketosis. I still strive to keep my cabrs below 100g a day on most days, minus the fiber, it makes about 70 ECC, sometimes may be more. High enough to stay out of ketosis but low enough to burn some fat for fuel as well. I don't believe that we need to lose weight to become healthy, it's completely the opposite, one needs to become healthy to achieve a healthy weight loss. While I do love fat: good lard, goose fat, delicious French butter, and extra virgin olive oil, and I do cook with it and eat it everyday in moderation, gorging on saturated fats it's not an option for me. It makes me even more IR than some fruit does.
Well, there are tons of low carb books and articles, I actually have a small low carb library on my own. While all of them emphasize certain carb restriction especially in form of processed sugars and starches, NONE advocate continuous ketosis as a healthy state of body. As for eating heaps of green leafy vegetables, I actually prefer outer salad leaves of Romain, while DH like the hearts. I love vegetables and eat at least two huge salads daily, in addition to some bell peppers, green radishes, cabbage, kale, swiss chard, spinach, etc on most days. I almost never eat potatoes, even sweet, nor I eat bread products. But I also love sweet fruits, like tomatoes (eat lots of it, plain with a sprinkle of salt), berries (in season), and my favorite apples and pears (in season only). I do eat some grapes when locally gorwn is avaialbe but I always eat my fruit for desert after a meal, with either good cheese, nuts or 85% dark chocolate.
As I already mentioned, I'm not implaying that fruit is healthy, nor that it's taste or looks good for everyone . But I'm positive that replacing not "healthy fruit" with Sucralose or any other artificial sweetener to satisfy your sweet tooth, which BTW you never lost despite eating very little carbs and burning fat for energy very effectrively, is not much healthier option. All in all, living in ocnstant deprivation IMHO even if you can extend your life to 100 years, is not appealing for me. Besides, past certain age life is not something one can really live to the fullest, I can't even imagine what is it to be 80. I look at my mother who is almost 85, telling you no fun at all. So, I'll take may be shorter life with no deprivation is term of my favorite fruts over miserable life in ketosis, even if it promises living much longer!
Best regards,
Dina

Well, I'm not gonna touch the diet issue again. I firmly believe that we're all different and have to find what's right for us and our own body. Some can eat more carbs, some need less, etc. It's all an YMMV thing.

I hope you're golden years are like my folk's and not like your mother's. They're in their mid-80's and living life to the hilt. They took a 3-week tour of Vietnam last fall and are planning on going to India next year. They are enjoying each and every day. My dad and I often walk our dogs together and while he's slowed down a tad, he still does pretty darn good. You get my mom in a shopping mall and you can barely keep up with her. Take care!