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  #901   ^
Old Sat, May-12-18, 04:27
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I've tried eating early instead of late, I found my appetite just adjusted to different feeding times. I end up going back to dinner because I work out just before then and it feels funny not eating until the next morning after a workout, probably due to the endless studies that whey protein companies fund to make their product seem not pointless.
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  #902   ^
Old Sat, May-12-18, 04:42
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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I had always been informed by certain training articles and guidelines that consuming protein ideally within an hour after a workout optimizes healing and repair of micro tears in muscle tissue. It makes sense, but I'm not sure if it's an accurate statement. I like to eat after a workout as well. My concern about moving my eating window to earlier would be how I respond to the absence of food around the traditional dinner time. Would it impact my sleep? Would I be able to fit a meal into my morning routine when I haven't had to think about it for a while now? Judging from what I know about my circadian rhythm, I may be best suited for the mid-day and early evening eating times.
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  #903   ^
Old Sat, May-26-18, 10:55
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,371
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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An addendum to Dr Fung's views on fat metabolism when fasting, this short answer to a FAQ from Dr Phinney on Virta blog:

https://blog.virtahealth.com/dietar...tored-fat-keto/

Quote:
Is dietary fat burned before stored fat on a ketogenic diet?
By Dr. Stephen Phinney and the Virta Team

Certain fats, like medium-chain triglycerides found in coconut or MCT oil cannot be stored in body fat, so whatever is consumed must be promptly burned for energy. This means that if you’re adding these fats on top of your dietary fat consumption for satiety, this type of fat takes priority.

For regular dietary fats, once they are digested, they enter the circulation and participate in what is called ‘fatty acid turnover.’ Whether fed or fasted, the body is always releasing, burning, and storing fat. When insulin is high, storage predominates, but turnover continues. When insulin is low, release and oxidation predominate. If you eat fat along with a lot of carbohydrates, it is prone to be stored. When fat is consumed in the context of a well formulated ketogenic diet, it — along with fat released from adipose stores — is prone to be burned. But once digested and absorbed, dietary fat and stored fat enter the ‘turnover pool’ and are in a constant state of mixing.
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  #904   ^
Old Sat, May-26-18, 11:23
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The number I've seen suggested for dietary fat vs. body fat on a standard 35 percent or so fat diet where the person is in balance is about half and half, half the dietary fat is oxidized, the same amount of body fat is oxidized, the other half of dietary fat of course ends up in storage.

The "constant state of mixing" is interesting in the context of claimed effects of various fats on insulin sensitivity, ldl cholesterol, etc. For instance, I've seen some studies where populations had omega 6 linoleic acid levels in adipose as high as 25 to 30 percent--endogenous omega 6 fatty acids might have the capacity, for a person new to avoiding omega 6 fatty acids, to prevent any hoped for benefit of restricting omega 6's from manifesting for a good long time. Older studies from the 60s tend to show linoleic acid more in the low single digits. I'd love to see somebody look at whether the adipose tissue fatty acid profile going in has much of an effect to the response to various protocols, including fasting.

Peter at Hyperlipid suggests that preservation of insulin sensitivity on a high linoleic vs. a high palmitic acid diet, while it can result in greater weight loss when calories are restricted, can result in threat of hypoglycemia-->increased appetite, increased fattening/decreased weight loss when eating ad-lib.

There is some data showing polyunsaturated fat being more ketogenic (if the calories are the same) vs. palmitic acid, preferably released from fat cells, preferably oxidized, etc.
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  #905   ^
Old Mon, May-28-18, 12:50
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Great post from Peter at Hyperlipid, with relevance to Fung fans.
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.ca/
Cole's notes, transplanting subcutaneous fat to the mesentery of a mouse--a visceral fat depot that drains into the portal vein, so supplies free fatty acids to the liver--results in a leaner mouse.


Quote:
So I think the mice in the subcutaneous-visceral group simply cut their ad-lib calories. Food intake was only measured over the one day in the CLAMS apparatus so we'll never know what the overall food intake was relative to controls, but I can't see any other explanation.

Which leads to the question as to why they might have cut calories, other than the obvious: They we not as hungry as the control mice. This effect occurred with mesenteric implanted subcutaneous adipocytes, but not with implanted visceral adipocytes. So we have to ask what the difference might be between the adipocyte types.

Visceral adipocytes are more insulin sensitive than subcutaneous adipocytes. They will store fat more easily and refuse to release it until insulin drops down to absolutely basal levels. On an ad-lib high carbohydrate diet this will not happen very often. As far as the liver is concerned, the visceral fat in the mesentery and omentum is non existent for most of the time. Adding extra visceral adipocytes at this site will not change this.

Subcutaneous adipocytes are less sensitive to insulin, they will store fat at high insulin levels but release FFAs easily as insulin levels fall. Obviously, they are always smaller than visceral adipocytes and they stay that way when implanted in to the recipient mice. If they are implanted in a location from which their easily released FFAs go directly to the liver they are in a position to have a metabolic effect.

Summary of the speculation so far: Visceral fat adds nothing to the FFA level of portal vein blood unless insulin level is well below that of a mouse on ad lib standard mouse chow. Placing subcutaneous adipocytes where their venous drainage goes directly to the liver supplies supplementary FFAs directly to the liver when insulin levels are merely low rather than rock bottom.



Quote:
More supplementary speculation: Is the normal profound fall in appetite on induction of ketogenic eating in humans directly related to the sudden access to visceral abdominal fat, secondary to the major reduction in circulating insulin? This would suggest that the satiating effect of ketogenic diets might be more marked in people with significant visceral obesity. It would become less obvious as weight loss progresses until the majority of remaining fat is where it should be, in the non-visceral adipocytes of a normal shaped human being... The effect might even be virtually non existent in young, fit, healthy folks who would simply eat under ketosis to maintain their current rather normal bodyweight.


The last bit seems relevant to those who have a bit more trouble getting insulin under that threshold that it needs to be under, to get at that visceral fat.
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  #906   ^
Old Wed, May-30-18, 05:18
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,371
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Dr Gerber has posted Dr Phinney's talk AGAINST extended fasting given at Breckenridge, with his Slides, if anyone missed it last March.

https://denversdietdoctor.com/dr-st...wo-edged-sword/

There is also a link to ALL the Breckenridge talks. Dr Bikman's is very good about protein...which with all the back and forth about lean muscle loss on extended fasting, brings me back to some version of a PSMF.
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  #907   ^
Old Wed, May-30-18, 06:25
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Dr. Bikman is doing some very important research. His talk at LC Breckenridge was very informative in terms of how protein works for those on LC compared with a SAD approach. Worth watching for anyone who is trying to figure out the optimum amount of daily protein. Lots of myths are starting to be confronted giving us solid information on what constitutes a healthy WOE.
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  #908   ^
Old Wed, May-30-18, 12:31
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I'm still deep keto and not a whit worried about getting any more than a gram per kilogram body mass of protein in.

I still like Marty Kendall's question (not sure he's asked this specifically, but it's at least implied by his whole blog)--optimized what? Optimizing for ketosis seems to hold me in good stead, I'm not sure why or even if the ketosis itself, or just what I have to do for consistent ketosis is what works for me. I'm unabashedly MOAR FAT even though that seems to be scoffed at more and more (not here) even in keto groups, but people are different.
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  #909   ^
Old Wed, May-30-18, 13:49
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Good points. Bikman indicated that insulin & glucagon ratios held steadily low with increased protein in the context of a low carb diet. "Optimized what?" is a good question. The only way I can personally achieve this is a subjective, "I feel better at this amount" approach. I can measure my blood ketones, and if I'm around 0.5mm/l more or less, I know this is good because I feel good. In rare instances when I consume much more protein than I normally do, I don't vary or leave the ketotic state. It takes a lot to move me to full-on glucose primary, usually requires increased carbs to do that, and it's very fleeting unless I sustain it.

Fat? I no longer know what's optimum. Therefore, I think I've made it much simpler for me. Nothing to calculate or measure, portion sizes are eyeballed rather than calipered and scaled. If I feel satiated until my next meal, that's optimum for me. Being fat adapted over a long period of time has made this much easier.

However, for those initially trying to understand how to best achieve and stay in ketosis, the measurements necessary to ID what is an optimum combination of macros are useful when comparing blood ketones to protein and carbs consumed. That's how I started and got to the point where easy maintenance is possible without employing the rigor of constant measurements and tests.
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  #910   ^
Old Wed, May-30-18, 15:06
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Interesting observations. For a while there was an idea going around that people sort of on the cusp of low carb might be not quite keto-adapted and not quite eating enough carbohydrate to make do, and that might explain people who didn't feel their best on low carb.

0.5 mM ketones--Phinney and Volek set that as the lower limit of nutritional ketosis, but it seems like a funny number. Metabolism of ketones depends on the chemical gradient between the exterior and interior of the cell, entry of ketones is passive--so the level of brain metabolism fueled by ketones depends on that mM level in the blood. By the time ketones are providing as much fuel for the brain as glucose, it's at comparable concentrations to normal blood glucose. So that ketone level doesn't actually reflect very much in the way of metabolism of ketones, setting aside the myth that ketones are lower when people are keto-adapted because they used them up so they weren't there to be measure. It seems likely that something besides the ketones themselves--the fact that they still reflect a fairly high fatty acid metabolism maybe--is what makes this work for you. I don't even know if my somewhat more ketogenic diet works for me (especially since I don't measure ketones) because of the ketones, or some effect of protein restriction, or high fatty acids, or what, just that it does.
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  #911   ^
Old Thu, May-31-18, 07:52
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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I look at the 0.5mm/L as a general guideline, not anything like a strong indicator, more of a reference point. And I measure ketones less frequently than I used to when I first started going keto. To your point, being below doesn't mean one isn't burning fat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
It seems likely that something besides the ketones themselves--the fact that they still reflect a fairly high fatty acid metabolism maybe--is what makes this work for you.

This is an excellent observation, as my LDL-C is above what is considered normal (healthy) and my triglycerides are well below what is considered a risk. My lipid profile is likely consistent with one who is a fat burner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I don't even know if my somewhat more ketogenic diet works for me (especially since I don't measure ketones) because of the ketones, or some effect of protein restriction, or high fatty acids, or what, just that it does.
I believe you've hit on the "sweet spot" for you as a fat burner. That's also what I'm trying to achieve, and I believe I'm close if not already there. Increasing my protein recently hasn't impacted my ketone levels, but I haven't increased it by a tremendous amount, and I still maintain a lot of time between meals. Experiencing my hunger shut off abruptly during a meal where I can't eat another bite is an indication that the signals are working the way they should. That's the primary indicator that I'm where I should be.
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  #912   ^
Old Thu, May-31-18, 10:16
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I'm looking forward to getting ahead on my bills in a couple of months and having a bit of mad money to spend on mct oil, a ketone meter and strips etc. so I can get stronger evidence of whether it's ketones themselves or something else that makes me do better on ketosis. Mct's probably aren't the best way, though, just like with liver mitochondria mct's can cross the blood brain barrier, they don't need active transport like long chain triglycerides to get into mitochondria, the only thing holding brain cells back from fatty acid oxidation is actually getting fatty acids in there.
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  #913   ^
Old Thu, Jun-07-18, 11:59
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY3...eature=youtu.be

Good Megan Ramos talk at low carb down under.
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  #914   ^
Old Thu, Jun-07-18, 12:37
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 19,177
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Dr Gerber has posted Dr Phinney's talk AGAINST extended fasting given at Breckenridge, with his Slides, if anyone missed it last March.

https://denversdietdoctor.com/dr-st...wo-edged-sword/

There is also a link to ALL the Breckenridge talks. Dr Bikman's is very good about protein...which with all the back and forth about lean muscle loss on extended fasting, brings me back to some version of a PSMF.


Janet, thank you for posting this link. I had some reservations about fasting as Dr FUng himself proclaimed he only cares about weight loss. Stating that an obese body has plenty of nutirents. Opposite to this, Dr Atkin's view that the obese are low on stored nutrients, plenty of stored fat energy yes, but low on vitamins and minerals due to the deficient SAD diet, Dr Atkins recommends taking a daily vitamin. My concern is the one dimensional issue of weight loss expressed by Dr Fung. And not a broader concern for health. This leaves me with the impression Dr fung is tunneled vision and maybe doesnt see other issues. ( DOnt get me wrong--Dr FUng is VERY inspiring,)

Dr Phinneys lecture helped me find middle ground. Im happy to try eating only one meal a day in hopes of eating enough good vegies and fruit and clean meats then 23 hours of fasting.

Fasting longer than 23 hours is probably not for me....cooking and eating is a joy.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Thu, Jun-07-18 at 13:52.
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  #915   ^
Old Thu, Jun-07-18, 17:27
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bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Doing My Best
Posts: 4,924
 
Plan: LC/CancerRecovery
Stats: 170/135/130 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I'm looking forward to getting ahead on my bills in a couple of months and having a bit of mad money to spend on mct oil, a ketone meter and strips etc. so I can get stronger evidence of whether it's ketones themselves or something else that makes me do better on ketosis.
Teaser, I've been monitoring both blood and urine ketones, same time daily. They are in sync, showing basically the same levels. I wonder if the meter and the expensive strips are worth it, but everybody has to choose. Just wanted to share my n=1.

I've also been logging my macros and trying to eat more food. I realize I have to be patient because I've been eating so little for such a long time.

Good luck with your own experiment.
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