I've been doing intermittent fasting for 15 days now. I eat between 3 and 8 p.m. I haven't noticed the "fruity" breath that typifies ketosis and wonder if ketosis is always accompanied by this symptom.

I've been on an almost exclusively raw food diet for nearly 8 months now. About 2 months ago, I introduced meat due to what I believe was severe protein deficiency. I've eaten no grains or dairy to speak of in those 8 months either.

I've read that ketosis strips are unreliable so perhaps I simply won't worry about knowing if I'm actually burning fat, but I WANT to be in ketosis as it seems that many benefits of IF-ing lie therein.

Could I be in ketosis during my fasting times without the fruity breath? I feel great on this WOE--hungry but less tired and more alert and less intensely stressed by my crazed, annoying job. Cheers

Kooky, I've eaten <60g Cho/day for five years now, the last year of which has been IF as well as low carb. I've never had any of the outward signs of ketosis, but from my understanding of how ketosis works, have been producing and using vast numbers of ketones the whole time. The simple version is, anytime your carb consumption is less than 80g you will necessarily be producing and using ketones. The more fat adapted you are the more your body will be able to use FFa's (which can come from either dietary fat or mobilized bodyfat) directly without the intermediate (and less efficient) step of getting the liver to make ketones out of those same FFa's. So ketones aren't even really the issue, using fat is, and fat can be utilized directly or through ketone metabolism.

Anyone who wants to enjoy the health/bodycomp benefits of a low carb dietary approach should quit stressing over getting outward symptoms of 'ketosis', including, but certainly not limited to, detecting ketones in your pee, and concentrate on the much more important factor of getting carb intake <80.

But it is so important to remember that you can produce ketones both from dietary fat and bodyfat. The only way to ensure they come from bodyfat is to get your calorie intake low enough that the liver must start looking elsewhere than your most recent fatty meal for the raw material for making ketones. But if you go too low, your thyroid gland will do what zillions of years of evolution has ensured will happen and slow your metabolism to better cope with the food shortage being experienced. Hitting the sweet spot of low enough calories to ensure that it is bodyfat, not just dietary fat being used to make ketones (and utilize FFa's directly too), but not so low that your metabolic rate plummets, is every low carber's challenge, if one of the priorities is burning bodyfat and stopping it being replenished. The actual amount will vary between individuals, but most low carb clinicians seem to report that 1000 low carb cals for women, and 1200 for men, are pretty reliable parameters.

Stuart

Ruth...2 miles already?! Good for you!

It is not uncommon for the scale to not move (or move slower) due to exercise. Huh?? Yea, it's ture. You're losing fat weight, but you are also gaining muscle weight. BUT, what else is happening is you are shrinking!! So please, if you didn't take your measurements before you started working out, do it now! Because when the scale isn't budging and you become discouraged, it is a real rush to see the tape measure shrink!!

Well written! I also believe that too many low-carbers are fooling themselves with too much fat, which translates into too many calories...hence the reason for the slow, or stalled weight loss. With LC and IF, I can certainly eat more calories and not gain weight (as I have been proving to myself this month!! but that's whole other topic I think I need to post about ,er...confess to soon! ), but I will most certainly NOT be losing weight right now, as I am eating too many calories.

Damn those holiday parties, feasts and get-togethers!!! It all revolves around food, drinks and more food!!!

I've entered that "Zone" as well and will be a few pounds short of reaching my goal by Christmas Eve. I have my last strength class at lunch today followed by an evening Buffet dinner for the canoeing group and an old friend's 86th birthday. Tomorrow's lunch is an Indian Buffet with work friends and then just family events but those will be from our home with just one outing. Although targeting lower carb choices I still have some treats planned for closer to Christmas and New Years but with most days being 18/6 with loads of food choices I don't think that I will lose and may pick up two ro three pounds with some of the carbier choices over the holidays.

I baked Carbquick/Almond Flour/Lard pie shells this morning at just under 1 ECC/slice before we add any filling. There is one for a LC Lemon Filling and another for Mincemeat along with some store bought Tart shells for those who indulge is some of the other choices.

The neighbors liked the Snow Tree and asked how it was done. One has begun forming their own (snow mound, water, more snow, water etc.) and it looks like it could be habit forming.

I'm not IF'ing today. I felt hungry this morning, so I ate. I'll probably IF tomorrow & Friday though because I do think I've been able to keep my calories lower with it than I have been able to keep them without it lately. I'll probably try to stay lower carb today intead.

Great explanation! Does this mean I should be eating low fat as well as low carb? I have been trying to increase my fats to complement the very lean meats I eat. I believe I am low carb but would need to track my food more carefuly on Fitday or some other site. At present, I am too busy for this (grad school and working and volunteering--oh my!)l

I am 46 years old and am losing weight from the IF--which I expected. I am slightly underweight now and hope to stabilize and even gain if possible. I have many dietary sensitivities and difficulty digesting some foods and I have chronic infections and some other health glitches, so I am trying IF partly because I've heard other people say it improved their digestion and health. I must say that I am struggling with getting enough food in the right combinations in my 5-hour window. This is largely because of my work schedule which will change for the better in a few months. Hurray!

Meanwhile, I am playing around with it.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. One year of IF-ing. I'm impressed...can you share any benefits you've gained (in addition to weight loss)? Happy Holly Days!

Julie and Stuart,

This whole issue of high fat is one I have never understood in the low carb arena, so thanks for the comments. I eat some fat, obviously, but I have never been a high fat eater, and again, obviously, I have been successful in my weight loss, eating mostly protein, salads and some fat in the form of what's on the meat, cream on my berries, that sort of thing, which isn't a ton.

I've also never used the ketone strips, so have no clue if I've been in ketosis and frankly never really cared. Am I losing or not, am I firming up or not (I need to measure, it's true!), am I feeling great? That's my measure of how this is working for me.

Right now I'm more excited about being able to bike a couple miles than anything else---as this is going to keep me focused during the holidays and is such a good thing for my knees-making my thighs stronger takes the pressure off them to support my body.

Yesterday I went to the store and bought a bunch of groceries after work as my grand daughter is home sick. The bags were heavy and I could feel the difference walking up the path to my house--about halfway up I realized that these bags, though heavy, weighed less than I used to, and I used to carry all this weight on my poor body!!

But not any more, hooray!!!

Have a great day everyone...

Ruth

The guest of honor was late (heavy snowfall again) for the dinner at the buffet this evening so it stretched into a 25 hour fast.
On top of the workout at lunch there was 45 minutes of shoveling again today. Christmas lights are greatly reduced and I added another 3 x 100 strings to the Snow Tree. My front yard must be almost as gaudy as Kary's now.

Oh I wouldn't say gaudy...more like festive...extremely festive . Got the airplane up tonight. Somehow we ended up having the two inflatables positioned so that the Santa pilot appears to be gazing into the snowglobe Snoopy's eyes. It's vaguely disturbing looking , but it started to really rain so we had to give it up for the night. No one else seems to think it looks a little off kilter, but possibly they were just sick of moving inflatables around the lawn under my direction . I have the inflatable waving Santa Mickey Mouse placed in the backyard so when you open the blinds of the family room he appears to be staring in on you and waving. It annoys the heck out of the dog (she's a terrier) and provides us with endless amusement (simple amusements for simple minds you know ). Pictures will be forthcoming when the rain lets up.
Everyone here on this board seems to have a real positive attitude towards the holidays and food consumption. And this is the first Christmas in which I haven't been totally stressed about food either. IF has greatly simplified my food issues and, as time goes by, this lack of angst is feeling normal. Nice.
Take care all.

Kary,

I was so happy to read your post about the holidays and food. I think a lot of us here are realizing there will ALWAYS be occasions associated with food, and that we are worth more than the way we feel after we eat all that junk. Picking and choosing the food you want to eat (yes, in my opinion it's fine to have a bit of "off plan" food if it's just a bit and planned and controlled--don't shoot me!) and leaving the rest alone is a wonderful thing to learn. So is eating whatever you want for a day and then getting right back strictly on plan the next day if that's your choice, as long as you are really able to get back on plan the next day.

It's called living in the real world, enjoying it, but not letting it define and control you.

I'm really glad you're here!

Ruth

just to clarify, I was not mocking the "high-fatters", nor saying that eating fat slows weight loss, I was simply commenting that fat is very high in calories, and many LC'ers seem to think they don't have to count calories.

I can fill up on veggies til my stuffed, for a fraction of the calories that I'd be eating if I were to fill up on fat. Having said that, I do like my fat, but try to use that as my cheat or treat, if you will. Like on weekends (or, actually, much of this month! ), I'll tend to have my wings, pork rinds, LC desserts...what I refer to as "legal junk" , ya' know, the yummy stuff! Which unfortunetly, happens to be high in calories too!

No, I agree, everyone is different, and it really works for some people, but I find when people complain about stalling and put up their food for the day, the fat content tends to be high, and the veggie and salad count tends to be low.

And I am also finding the closer I get to goal I DO have to keep a casual count of my calories as well---which from reading posts on this entire board a lot of people seem to be doing who are big number losers, so the pattern seems to be there.

It's good though, it's teaching me to eat well-rounded, and not just protein and fat, so that's a positive thing!

Ruth

I like my dietary fat. I like full fat dressings and sour cream and mayo and hollandaise sauce and a nice cut of steak and bacon. But with that said I gotta tell you that I measure everything that goes into my mouth and put it on My Plan. So while I don't stint on lets say sour cream if a recipe/dish needs it I am aware of what I have eaten. I also look at a particularly rich dish and maybe take less of that and more of salad or veggies (I like my veggies also ). The thing that makes LC so liveable is that you can have those extra touches like good tasting sauces and dressings and butter and a decent moist cut of meat instead of deary, dry and tasteless low fat fare. But, for me, I really have to know how much I am eating to control my weight.

Julie, eating fat does slow weight loss. Eating anything slows weight loss. Replacing carb calories with fat calories might also slow weight gain (not to mention making you a whole lot healthier), but if you aren't consuming less energy than you are burning (including futile cycles) you won't lose an ounce. LC makes it easier to eat fewer calories, and ensures that the hormonal environment is conducive to fat burning. And hopefully (depending on how good a futile cycler you are individually), if your calorie intake is low enough, the fat that is burnt will be bodyfat not dietary fat.

A lot of low carbers seem to think that if you are in 'fat burning mode' then some of the fat that is burnt will necessarily be bodyfat. IMHO this is wrong. Mobilizing bodyfat is a much more complex metabolic operation than burning dietary fat derived free fatty acids/ketones. Until all the dietary fat is exhausted, why would your body even bother going looking for bodyfat stores?.

Everyone's low carb calorie intake threshold for losing bodyfat is different of course, and it will definitely be higher than the high carb bodyfat loss calorie threshold for that individual. And it's important to remember too that low carb ensures that there is a huge flat spot in the bodyfat change/calorie intake curve. Meaning that the difference in the calorie intake below which you start losing, and the one above which you start gaining can be huge. Whereas the same person eating higher carb will start gaining much sooner after their loss threshold is exceeded. In other words both the loss and gain (calorie intake) threshold are lower for a higher carber, and the two numbers are much closer together.

Confused yet? .

Stuart.