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  #31   ^
Old Tue, Jun-05-07, 17:12
ProteusOne's Avatar
ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Okay, here's the address again to the Wiki. I'm going to start sending out the passwords to those who are interested.

Please, what I have started is just my particular brand of organizing. Please edit until your paleo mind is content!

http://paleo.pbwiki.com/

Remember, send me a PM for the password.
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  #32   ^
Old Tue, Jun-05-07, 21:15
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kallyn kallyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonIan
I would accept that on a normal paleo diet, but not for a pure experiment. I don't think that eating anything too far from Old World foodstuff would be ok.

Quote:
The origins of this plant are the subject of controversy, with some authorities claiming it is native to south Asia, while others claim its origin is in northwestern South America. Fossil records from New Zealand indicate that small, coconut-like plants grew there as long as 15 million years ago. Even older fossils have been uncovered in Rajasthan, TamilNadu, Kerala and Maharashtra, India.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut
Similarly tomatoes and peppers would off the list. For normal diet, sure. But not for the experiment.


If coconuts are 15mya they are far older than any hominid species. The human ancestral line (genus Homo) didn't start until about 2.5mya. I did a bit of googling too and it seems the new consensus is that coconuts are indigenous to SE Asia, which I believe was populated pretty early on (see Java Man - one of my old geology professors at Rutgers, Carl Swisher, actually dated this fossil himself at 1.7mya). Why do you strike tomatoes and peppers off the list?
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  #33   ^
Old Tue, Jun-05-07, 22:25
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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I love the term you coined... APE.
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  #34   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 02:04
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LondonIan LondonIan is offline
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Kallyn, the reason I take all three off the list is that that none of them would have been eaten in my ancestral line.

If anyone here is significantly Far Eastern or Native American in origin then I'd say go ahead, but few or none of my ancestors are likely to have encountered those foodstuffs (or anything similar) more than a few hundred years back.

Last edited by LondonIan : Wed, Jun-06-07 at 12:55.
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  #35   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 07:57
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonIan
Kallyn, the reason I take all three of the list is that that none of them would have been eaten in my ancestral line.

If anyone here is significantly Far Eastern or Native American in origin then I'd say go ahead, but few or none of my ancestors are likely to have encountered those foodstuffs (or anything similar) more than a few hundred years back.

I'd have to contend, however, that we are still the same species. Well, I've been called several various names for subspecies before, but....

LondonIan, for something like this please go ahead and qualify it in the wiki. I don't want to be the only one in there editing, it's too much dang work!

Let's go APE.
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  #36   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 08:16
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sleeknslim sleeknslim is offline
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What about lard? Presumably in Paleo times they could have rendered the fat and saved it in a animal skin bag. Also shouldn't the veggies, nuts and fruit be in season, either in the area we are living in or our ancestor's area? This would of course require more research. It'd also be easier to do this in late summer or early fall. Does anyone know of a good website or book which might have this info?
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  #37   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 08:20
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kallyn kallyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeknslim
What about lard? Presumably in Paleo times they could have rendered the fat and saved it in a animal skin bag. Also shouldn't the veggies, nuts and fruit be in season, either in the area we are living in or our ancestor's area? This would of course require more research. It'd also be easier to do this in late summer or early fall. Does anyone know of a good website or book which might have this info?


If you can find a local farmer's market, anything they sell will be currently in season.
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  #38   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 08:23
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kallyn kallyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonIan
Kallyn, the reason I take all three of the list is that that none of them would have been eaten in my ancestral line.

If anyone here is significantly Far Eastern or Native American in origin then I'd say go ahead, but few or none of my ancestors are likely to have encountered those foodstuffs (or anything similar) more than a few hundred years back.


Yeah, but you could have had an ancestor 1.7mya eating coconuts and there'd be no way to tell. You could be supremely adapted to coconuts and not know it! I would argue that they are significantly more paleo than a lot of the veggies we currently eat which are the products of selective breeding and hybridization.
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  #39   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 08:28
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Do we need to get bogged down in the debate of what the ideal diet is for each individual? I don't think we need to come to any sort of concensus, IMHO. I would think the idea is that we each have an idea of what our most perfect diet would be and we strive to do that for a week.

Personally I'm not interested in doing this to make historians and anthropologists happy, I'm doing it to see how it makes me feel.
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  #40   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 08:49
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kallyn kallyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Do we need to get bogged down in the debate of what the ideal diet is for each individual? I don't think we need to come to any sort of concensus, IMHO. I would think the idea is that we each have an idea of what our most perfect diet would be and we strive to do that for a week.

Personally I'm not interested in doing this to make historians and anthropologists happy, I'm doing it to see how it makes me feel.


I think you just said what I was trying to get at. It seems like people want to make choices based on their own situation, but apply them to everyone, which I don't agree with. It's fine if people don't want to eat coconuts or tomatoes because of whatever their own reasons are, but that's no reason to preclude them for everyone.
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  #41   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 13:00
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LondonIan LondonIan is offline
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Ah well, maybe I misunderstood the experiment - I don't have any big axe to grind over daily foods. I thought we were trying to work out what a 'purist' diet might be and spend a week on it to compare to our normal diets. If it appears that criticising anyone food choices, I'm not. I was just taking this as a little experimental archaeology.
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  #42   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 13:37
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LondonIan LondonIan is offline
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Quote:
Yeah, but you could have had an ancestor 1.7mya eating coconuts and there'd be no way to tell
It would have to have meant some poor H. Erectus schlepped all the way back to Africa and rejoined the gene pool there.
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  #43   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 13:39
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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They haven't had coconut palms in africa at some point? Remember, the climate has changed a lot over a long period of time and coconuts are good at traveling across oceans.
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  #44   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 13:45
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LondonIan LondonIan is offline
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I wish, but not likely. There is a small possibilty of an early presence in East Africa.
http://www.palms.org/principes/1994/coconut.htm
Quote:
Origin and Diversity

The general consensus has been that the Coconut originated in the southwest Pacific and reached Africa later (Purseglove 1972, Child 1974, Ohler 1984). Purseglove speculated that Malaysian sea-rovers introduced the coconut to Madagascar in the first centuries A.D. and that from there it could have reached the coast of mainland East Africa. Merrill (193-7) mentioned that the words for coconut used in Madagascar also occur in the Far East and the Pacific. However, Sauer (1967) thought that the early presence of coconuts on uninhabited islands like the Seychelles and Mauritius strongly suggested natural dispersal. It follows from this that coconuts could have floated to East Africa (Harries 1978). Subsequently, Harries (1981) showed that the common tall varieties in East Africa are late germinating, with wild type characteristics similar to the coconuts on the Indian subcontinent, while the common tall varieties in peninsular Malaysia are early germinating, domesticated types. Thus the natural dissemination favored by Sauer and the human-aided introduction suggested by Purseglove can be considered as consecutive events rather than competing theories.
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  #45   ^
Old Wed, Jun-06-07, 14:12
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Ah, hell, let us eat the 'nuts if we want to!

I think we may have a similar debate about the nightshades. I've been wanting to eliminate them for a while, so while I wouldn't exclude them (except potatoes) I might personally try to eliminate them during the experiment, just to see what happens.
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