do you all thinnk this is totally rubbish, or did this post just not appear in time to be reacted upon? just wondering!

Wilhelmina, I have no personal experience with this (That's why I didn't post a response to it) but it makes sense to me.

Some of the Best Long Distance Swimmers who swim in the Cold rivers, and Oceans are over weight. It makes sense that they would have to be.

Just saw a documentary on a guy who holds the "records" for it.

As I said...I just don't have any personal experience with it. I'm not a "Swimmer" at all. lol

i have always been a swimmer, actually i would classify myself more of a snorkeler. i have what they call a swimmer's body.
long and lean, with broad shoulders.
swimming keeps my muscles taunt, hard, lean and not muscular.
keeps my legs lean.

i swear by swimming, always have.
maybe one day i'll get back on my total gym..
but for now, the water is too cold to swim in and i'd much rather listen to you all talk about developing muscles.

Satya I have no idea on this either. Im the same as you, ive never had a problem, in fact my energy skyrocketed when I went meat and eggs, and the lower my carbs got, the more energy i had. And that was training full time as a professional athlete, then working at night as coach, alot of which was hands on a demonstrating, sometimes taking part in the sessions. Pretty much 14 hour days of non stop physical movement yet I burned out anyone who ever trained with me, when they hit the wall i was still going. I spoke about this with Dr Greg Ellis and he said when you make the metabolic switch you will outlast all the carb eaters, and it was true, he said the same effect happened with sled dogs, they performed better the lower the carbs got, and best as full carnivores- as they are in nature.

How long have you been eating this way, Kelso? My, but we are so alike in many ways! Your training protocol was much more umphy than anything I could manage, but like you, I can't understand the guys who do martial arts and can't hang on vlc-zc. We are all so unique in some regards. And it sure is nice to have a spot where we can talk about this stuff, and disagree and learn and all that.

Besides swimmers except at higher levels some long distance runers are skinny fat.

Even at a high level, take a look at the athletes in track & field sprinters have the best physiques. Perhaps it has something to do with sprinting promoting gowth homone production.

I also have very good energy on zc. Anecdotally, I've seen almost an equal number of people that are lethargic or lack a little zip.

The body's supposed to start using fat as an energy source could it be that it takes longer for some to adapt or that they aren't eating enough fat so that the switch never takes place?

Theoretically the switch should occur 3 to 6 weeks after going zc. Has it taken others longer? Probably but I would like to hear from others and what if anything did people to kick start it?

I began eating just meat and eggs, and cream and cheese about 4 years ago now Satya, and before that i had been paleo for a year or so. Other than a trial reintroduction of fruits and veggies about a year ago- which was right before i or sick, and i didnt start improving until i removed them. Then i just went meat, and organ meat and dropped all the dairy about 6 months ago. So in total ive ive eating what you could call a traditional diet for over 5 years, and zero carb (if you include cheese, butter and cream) for 4 years, and pure just meat for 6 months. Although there were extended periods also within the previous 4 years i just ate meat with no dairy either.

That's how I felt when I went snow-shoeing. It wasn't that they could not keep up, but I did it fasted and kept going and they were eating gels and stuff.

I'm starting a lifting routine beginning tonight - I'm using the one that was on a blog posted on the ZC thread earlier (sorry the address escapes me now).

I have a question though for you guru's - my knees make a terrible and very loud crunching/crackling sound whenever I bend them. It doesn't occur when walking but when walking up stairs or bending fully at the knees. It's quite the alarming sound but I don't feel any pain. I'm guessing it's just strain on the joints due to my weight but I thought I'd ask.

I did a few squats yesterday (no weight - just trying to practice the correct form) and it's really alarming how loud the sound is.

DH swears all I need to do is eat celery.

MM, If its not painful, its usually just pockets of nitrogen gas, that 'pop' as the joint moves through its range of motion. This can sometimes indicate you are holding tension tho- hence the sometimes relaxed feeling of a joint after it has been clicked. So you need to ask whats causing the tension? Usually a muscle group is holding tension around the joint, for instance, my knees click when my hamstrings are tight.
If its a constant and painful clicking though it may point to something else. For instance sometimes when my shoulder clicks its painful, and thats due the the trigger points, probably putting the joint in a poor position.
If its not hurting though i wouldnt worry to much about it, everything on me clicks, just stretch out.

Today is my day off the gym and I am jumping about. ZC gives me so much energy, but I know I need the rest for my muscles, especially at my size.

I might do a little broomstick routine tonight, but then cool it as I'm lifting tomorrow and snow-shoeing Sunday.

I have no idea what's better but I HATE working out after eating. Having an empty stomach (and empty small intestine) is just a matter of preference for me. I'm also lazy about eating afterwards - sometimes I wait until my regular dinnertime even if my workout was in the morning. Maybe that's bad, but my primary reason for exercise is because I like it, not for health or looks.

Last Sunday when I had my Chinese acrobatics class I got really tired afterwards. I was tired for a few days, in fact. I have no idea if it was because of the workout, but I had a lot of symptoms of being "glutened" around that time, so maybe it wasn't.

Sometimes that sound is related to a roughening of the cartilage under the knee cap, or a mal-tracking of the knee cap as you go through full range of motion, called chondromalacia. I got it from repeated knee surgeries after an ACL tear/repair and various cartilage tears. It sounds awful but doesn't hurt. Mine get achy during rapid weather shifts too. I suppose excess weight could put enough stress. For me, supplementing with glucosamine and chondroitin (sp?) helped a lot.

The key to make squats safe is to make sure that knees are tracking straight over toes. The way to make sure that is happening is to use a slightly wider than shoulder width stance with the toes pointed out around 30 degrees and then really sit back and down into it while consciously making sure to shove the knees out towards the big toes and not letting the knees cave in towards the center anywhere in the motion.

Krista has a good squat tutorial here.

I have the same sounds in both my knees as well. I had 4 surgeries (2 in each ACL/MCL) and the DR told me its bad cartilage and loose cartilage. Time will make it worse and without a total knee replacement it will remain there.

That's what he told me they don't hurt but when a storm comes I know lol