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  #16   ^
Old Wed, May-30-07, 11:20
ysabella's Avatar
ysabella ysabella is offline
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Kristine, I don't have any argument with people who don't want to eat it. As an additive, it's true that MSG gets put into foods and labeled in sneaky ways (there are whole websites about it), aka "natural flavoring," "autolyzed yeast extract" and so on. I would support a change in labeling that clearly shows how much is in the food, if that's what people want. I think people should know what's in their food.

NancyLC, absolutely true. Controlled rotting is a very important food preparation tool. I was just reading last night about miso, which is cultured with a mold.

I was also reading something interesting about vitamin K2 - I should go work now, but I'll park this here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_%28food%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K
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  #17   ^
Old Wed, May-30-07, 12:12
cs_carver cs_carver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysabella
Is food a drug? Or is it only some foods? Is it only processed foods? Is it bad to eat foods that affect the brain?


Some foods ARE drugs in both senses (medicine and recreational pharma), some are more so than others. Not only processed "foods"--how do you qualify the various mushrooms / plants / insects people eat for their non-nutritive effect?

given the brain needs energy and that's coming from food, almost anything you eat has the possibility of affecting the brain, unless you're eating nothing, which is a whole 'nother and more immediate problem, brain-wise.

I have not had great effects from various supplements sold for their ability to cross the blood-brain barrier, so I tend to stay away from that category. YMMV.
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  #18   ^
Old Wed, May-30-07, 12:41
Michelle H Michelle H is offline
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[QUOTE=ysabella][NancyLC, absolutely true. Controlled rotting is a very important food preparation tool. I was just reading last night about miso, which is cultured with a mold.
QUOTE]
It is not surprising that many cultures have developed fermented foods. Controlled fermentation is also a good way to preserve foods - eg, lowering the pH to stop "real" food spoilage micro-organisms growing. Yoghurt is a good example. Not much other than lactic acid bacteria survive in yoghurt. And the soured milk says safe to consume much longer than fresh milk.
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  #19   ^
Old Wed, May-30-07, 12:50
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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I liked the comment that was in Dr. Eades blog about using MSG in cooking. It's a cheap trick unworthy of good cooks. You shouldn't need to add it when you can get umami from other things.
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, May-30-07, 14:56
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ysabella ysabella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cs_carver
Some foods ARE drugs in both senses (medicine and recreational pharma), some are more so than others. Not only processed "foods"--how do you qualify the various mushrooms / plants / insects people eat for their non-nutritive effect?

Well, exactly. And consider the pleasure of a nice meal - the pleasure of eating itself may affect the brain, right?

My mention of processed foods is because people seem to worry about MSG but not the same glutamate when found in natural foods. Is there really a difference between MSG powder bought at the store (which is made from fermented molasses or boiled seaweed) and the free glutamates in parmesan cheese? If one affects the brain, does the other affect it in the same way?

Quote:
given the brain needs energy and that's coming from food, almost anything you eat has the possibility of affecting the brain, unless you're eating nothing, which is a whole 'nother and more immediate problem, brain-wise.

Oddly enough, starvation can have a euphoric effect, probably some kind of stress defense mechanism. Even no food can be druglike and addictive in its way.

Quote:
I have not had great effects from various supplements sold for their ability to cross the blood-brain barrier, so I tend to stay away from that category. YMMV.

I was thinking of out-and-out drugs, like pain pills. Getting those opioids to the brain is just not that easy.
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  #21   ^
Old Wed, May-30-07, 15:04
ysabella's Avatar
ysabella ysabella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle H
It is not surprising that many cultures have developed fermented foods. Controlled fermentation is also a good way to preserve foods - eg, lowering the pH to stop "real" food spoilage micro-organisms growing. Yoghurt is a good example. Not much other than lactic acid bacteria survive in yoghurt. And the soured milk says safe to consume much longer than fresh milk.

Someone told me once that San Francisco has a good climate for wild yeast, and that is why sourdough is such a big thing there. Sourdough is started there by just leaving it out to catch wild yeasties. Do the same thing somewhere else, you'll catch different wild yeast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactob...anfranciscensis

Huh, and it looks like Lambic beer is brewed with wild yeast. Huh!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambic

Most beers use cultivated yeast - as I recall from taking the tour, Guinness has its very own strain.
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  #22   ^
Old Wed, May-30-07, 22:30
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rightnow rightnow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysabella
Oddly enough, starvation can have a euphoric effect, probably some kind of stress defense mechanism. Even no food can be druglike and addictive in its way.

Heck yeah. When I was about 18-20 I did a *lot* of 'spiritual' fasting, usually for 7-10 days at a time. I loved it. The side effects on the mind are well conducive to obsessive prayer and talking to angels.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, May-31-07, 10:33
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ysabella ysabella is offline
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I'm hoping to sneak some time in to dig around today. Meanwhile, I went to singing rehearsal last night and what did we have? Framboise Lambic beer!
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  #24   ^
Old Sat, Jun-02-07, 04:15
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ysabella ysabella is offline
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So, looking closely at casein: there are four main types of casein, alpha s1, alpha s2, beta, and kappa. Sometimes these are written using Greek - α β κ - so I recommend trying the Greek letters when searching.
Here is a good primer on casein micelles: Ohio State link

From this page on human milk:
Quote:
The predominant casein of human milk is β-casein, which forms micelles of relatively small volume and produces a soft, flocculent curd in the infant's stomach.


Flocculent! What a great word. I had to look it up:
Quote:
Main Entry: floc·cu·lent
Pronunciation: 'flä-ky&-l&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin floccus + English -ulent
1 : resembling wool especially in loose fluffy organization
2 : containing, consisting of, or occurring in the form of loosely aggregated particles or soft flakes <a flocculent precipitate>


This PDF has WAY more than you ever wanted to know about human milk β-casein.

Interestingly, there are two types of β-casein: a1 and a2. Apparently β a1 is implicated in some health problems, and β a2 is not - in Australia, a2 milk is being marketed. Jersey cows give a2-ish milk, and Holsteins/Frisian give a1. It's hard to say whether this makes any real difference, so far. But you can try purchasing some Jersey-cow milk and see whether it makes a difference to you.

But here's the kicker, from this page:
Quote:
Literature from the A2 Corporation presents the distinction between A1 and A2 beta caseins. Both caseins are composed of a series of amino acids that are linked together. Beta casein A2 has the amino acid proline in the 67th position in its sequence of amino acids. In A1 the 67th position becomes histidine, creating a different type of beta casein. When beta casein A1 is digested, the amino acid chain is cut right before histidine at postition 67, releasing a fragment of seven amino acids called beta casomorphin 7 (BCM-7).

According to McLachlan, BCM-7 in A1 beta casein has been shown to influence platelet aggregation and LDL oxidation, both factors in heart disease. Rats injected with BCM-7 have exhibited symptoms characteristic of schizophenia. BCM-7 has definitive opiate-like properties.


Here is a relevant link to the A2 Corporation site. And this page has a sort of diagram at the bottom showing the chain and where the change is, the proline instead of histidine.

So, what's not clear to me is, is a2 milk free of casomorphin? Or is it just free of this specific casomorphin, BCM-7?

Here's a PDF of a discussion about this. Appparently the a2 milk has been available for a long time in NZ and AU. Is it common in the stores down there, anyone? Or has it disappeared?

Dude, this is way interesting!

Okay, it's really late, I have to go to bed now.
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  #25   ^
Old Sat, Jun-02-07, 09:55
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Now that's a nice find! Do you think we're less crazy now?

Here's what Wiki says:
Quote:
Opioid

Casein has been documented to break down in the stomach to produce the peptide casomorphine, an opioid that appears to act primarily as a histamine releaser [1]. Casomorphine is suspected by some sources to aggravate the symptoms of autism [2].

The reference is to a pub-med article: A naturally occurring opioid peptide from cow's milk, beta-casomorphine-7, is a direct histamine releaser in man.

Goats and sheep have milk higher in A2 also.

About the autism thing:
Quote:
What is the theory behind it?

Casein is broken down in the intestines into several by-products, including one called casomorphine. These by-products are much more common in the urine of children with autism than in children without autism. Some scientists have concluded that they are leaking from the intestines into the blood of these children (2, 5). Many research studies report that children with autism often have gastrointestinal problems, including intestinal leakage (5). The argument is that, if casomorphine is being absorbed into the general circulation in children with autism, then it could affect behavior (2-5).

In support of this theory, injection of casomorphine in animals activates areas of the brain that have been reported to be involved in autism (6). Moreover, there is evidence that blocking at least some of the action of casomorphine improves the behavior of children with autism (7). Finally, recent evidence of a genetic mutation common among children with autism has been traced to a gene involved in gastrointestinal function (8).


http://autism.healingthresholds.com...asein-free-diet

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sat, Jun-02-07 at 10:01.
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  #26   ^
Old Sat, Jun-02-07, 12:07
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ysabella ysabella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Now that's a nice find! Do you think we're less crazy now?

I haven't read anything about it being addictive or causing druglike effects yet. I've only read about this BCM-7 having potential harmful effects. And human breast milk contains the β a1 casein, so it gives babies BCM-7. I'm not saying that means it's great stuff, I just think that's interesting.


Yes, I saw that. However, that does not involve crossing into the brain. There was an in vitro response from white blood cells, and a skin reaction. That has nothing to do with affecting the brain and causing euphoria or addiction.

Quote:
Goats and sheep have milk higher in A2 also.

Indeed, I saw that somewhere. I read somewhere in these links that the a1 beta casein was a relatively recent mutation, and all cows used to give a2 milk, but it was 3 am and I can't remember where I saw that.


The evidence so far only is "it may help some children." None of the studies done so far have had adequate controls. This page mentions that "Some people report no benefits from the GFCF diet" and "other parents do not notice a difference in their children." I think parents might want to have a urine peptide test done on the kid before they embark on something like this.

The basis of this is "leaky gut syndrome," where some people are considered to have a more permeable colon than normal. Oh, wait, even better: here's a nice overview of how intestinal permeability can be measured using sucralose! I found one study indicating doubt, but it was from 2004, and I found a lot of entries where sucralose excretion was given as data, so I think it has become standard. Perhaps that is more informative than a urine peptide test?
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  #27   ^
Old Sat, Jun-02-07, 12:54
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Quote:
I haven't read anything about it being addictive or causing druglike effects yet. I've only read about this BCM-7 having potential harmful effects. And human breast milk contains the β a1 casein, so it gives babies BCM-7. I'm not saying that means it's great stuff, I just think that's interesting.

Well, if it does it is very subtle, on a level that isn't obvious. Except that we are quite fond of our dairy products. I mean, you could probably give up most of the vegetable kingdom and never feel much longing for it. But hoo boy, I had a heck of a time giving up dairy. There was something more than "it tastes good".

Did you run across the rat studies yet? The ones where they were given caseomorphins and it affected their brains. I thought you had posted those, but maybe I saw them elsewhere.

There may be good reason why babies get a bit of caseomorphin exposure it might help bind them to Mom (Mom, the pusher), relax them, help them sleep. But at the level present in human breast milk (HBM) it is much less and the period of time is relatively short.

Truthfully, I'm less concerned about the opiods for myself than I am about things like it oxidizing LDL and causing a release of histamines. I wonder if the histamines is why I tend to have sinus issues when I use dairy products?

About intestinal permeability, if you're interested in it's mechanics and how grains affect it, there's a researcher/doctor called Fasano that is exploring the hormone called "zonulin" which he discovered. Google that one or search in PubMed. Of course, they're investigated possible drugs to control intestinal permeability so we can throw whatever crap we want down our gullets. But one study finding was published (it is in pubmed) about how everyone has their gut get leaky when they eat wheat. It becomes more pronounced in celiacs when it gets jammed open even longer. And another doctor, Hadjivallislou (ton of his stuff in "The Gluten File") is finding gliadin antibody deposits on brain lesions in humans. It isn't getting teleported I'm pretty sure, it's crossing the blood/brain barrier.

The point I'm getting at is that even IF the casomorphin molecule is too big, which it would seem it isn't from other studies, it probably has ample opportunities to cross the BBB when people eat wheat. Kind of makes the typical American breakfast seem like a bit of a disaster... wheat based cereal with milk.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sat, Jun-02-07 at 13:10.
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  #28   ^
Old Sat, Jun-02-07, 13:22
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Ok... had to come back because looking for that rat study I found this. Opiods don't have to necessarily cross the BBB to have an effect:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/120/3/252
Quote:
The effect of bovine casein and synthetic ß-casomorphins on the motility of rat gastrointestinal tract was studied by noninvasive techniques using the nonabsorbable marker 141Ce. Casein suspensions (CAS) or whey protein suspensions (WPS) were labeled with 141Ce and fed by gastric tube. Gastric emptying rate (GER) as well as gastrointestinal transit time (GITT) of the tracer were significantly longer with feeding CAS compared to WPS. The differences between the CAS and the WPS groups were partly (GER) or completely (GITT) abolished by pretreating the animals with the specific opiate-receptor antagonist naloxone. It is assumed that opioid peptides released from casein during digestion slowed gastrointestinal motility by direct interaction with gut opiate receptors. To prove whether ß-casomorphins, when given by gastric tube, can affect motility, different synthetic ß-casomorphins in doses between 1 and 10 mg were added to the WPS. The ß-casomorphin-4 (Tyr-Pro-Phe-Pro-NH2) showed no effect on GITT. The D-Ala substituted D-Ala-ß-casomorphin-4 (Tyr-D-Ala-Phe-Pro-NH2) and D-Ala-ß-casomorphin-5 (Tyr-D-Ala-Phe-D-Ala-Tyr-NH2), which are more resistant to proteolytic attack and have higher opioid potency than ß-casomorphin-4, slowed GITT in a dose-dependent manner.


Ok.. here you go. An All You Can Read Buffet of studies of casomorphins on the brain. Type in "casomophin brain" at the search prompt. I'd say there's plenty of research and interest in the topic that indicates there are a lot of questions and observations about dairy products that have intrigued researchers.

So that's just one of the problems with dairy, I think there's a whole host of additional issues that most people never hear about.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sat, Jun-02-07 at 13:31.
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  #29   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-07, 14:53
ysabella's Avatar
ysabella ysabella is offline
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Thanks for the research, NancyLC.
I admit I'll be happier if milk is safe, since people drink so much of it in this country. But I am trying to keep an open mind here. If I had to guess, I would guess that it's no good for some people, and fine for some people.

Quote:
The effect of bovine casein and synthetic ß-casomorphins on the motility of rat gastrointestinal tract was studied by noninvasive techniques using the nonabsorbable marker 141Ce.


This is interesting, but it only shows that colon motility was slowed down due to the casomorphins triggering opiod receptors in the colon, and that it didn't happen with whey. As far as I can tell, that is - I only can see the abstract. It's well known that (a)opiate drugs slow intestinal motility - I was prescribed some painkillers after my c-section that certainly had that affect - and (b)casein is slow to digest and gives a long feeling of satiety. Apparently, casomorphins trigger the same receptors in the colon and slow down the digestion just like opiates do.

That's interesting stuff, but it doesn't discuss effects to the brain other than messages of satiety. And to be honest, I see an upside - long-term satiety is helpful when you're dieting. Casein is a favorite evening food for weightlifters as the slow trickle of protein goes on most of the night. I eat cottage cheese before bed sometimes for the same effect (instead of a shake of casein powder).

I did pop casomorphin brain into the search tool on the Journal of Nutrition site, and I got four results:

Quote:
Catherine Sandré, Aude Gleizes, Françoise Forestier, Roseline Gorges-Kergot, Stefan Chilmonczyk, Joëlle Léonil, Marie-Christiane Moreau, and Colette Labarre
A Peptide Derived from Bovine ß-Casein Modulates Functional Properties of Bone Marrow-Derived Macrophages from Germfree and Human Flora-Associated Mice
J. Nutr. 131: 2936-2942.

This one was hard to read, but it was a test whether some casein peptides had a helpful effect on the immune system without causing inflammation. The answer was a yes, but it was only in vitro and using mice.

Grant money - This work was funded in part by Action Incitative Programmée nutrition et immunité (Convention AIP 96/383/P00156 Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique).

Quote:
Jelena Pupovac, and G. Harvey Anderson
Dietary Peptides Induce Satiety via Cholecystokinin-A and Peripheral Opioid Receptors in Rats
J. Nutr. 132: 2775-2780.

This is a good read. Check it out:

Quote:
The results of this study support the hypothesis that the digestion of food proteins gives rise to peptides that initiate a multiplicity of satiety signals from the gut. We showed that suppression of food intake by casein and soy protein involves peptides released from their digestion and is mediated through both CCK-A and opioid receptors. When the receptor antagonists were combined, their effect on food intake in h 1 of feeding was greater than the effect of each alone, suggesting that their effects were additive.

Mediation of satiety signals induced by casein and its hydrolysate through these mechanisms was expected. Previous in vivo studies have shown the presence of opioid activity in casein (11Citation ). Also, it was demonstrated recently that intact casein promotes premature meal termination in meal-fed rats, most likely through the mechanism that involves peripheral opioid and CCK receptors (15Citation ). However, there are no reports describing opioid activity of soy protein.
(...)
Some early work showed that soy protein inhibited the adenylate cyclase activity in hybrid cell homogenates, but, unlike wheat or milk proteins, this inhibition was not naloxone-reversible (19Citation ), suggesting the lack of opioid peptides in soy protein. Our study suggests, however, that there is opioid-like activity arising from both proteins, and that these are involved in food intake regulation. Naloxone increased food intake by 83% when given with CH, by 58% with SH, by 21% with intact casein and by 59% with intact soy protein in h 1 of feeding (Table 2).

(bolding mine)
They suggest a possible opioid action of soy peptides.
Grant money - Supported by the National Sciences and Engineering Research Council (NSERC) of Canada.


Quote:
Xi Lin, Mark R. Chavez, Richard C. Bruch, Gail E. Kilroy, Linda A. Simmons, Ling Lin,, H. Douglas Braymer, George A. Bray, and David A. York
The Effects of a High Fat Diet on Leptin mRNA, Serum Leptin and the Response to Leptin Are Not Altered in a Rat Strain Susceptible to High Fat Diet-Induced Obesity
J. Nutr. 128: 1606-1613.

Not directly relevant. The keywords only appeared in cites at the bottom.

Quote:
M. A. Froetschel, M. J. Azain, G. L. Edwards, C. R. Barb, and H. E. Amos
Opioid and Cholecystokinin Antagonists Alleviate Gastric Inhibition of Food Intake by Premeal Loads of Casein in Meal-Fed Rats
J. Nutr. 131: 3270-3276.

Again with the satiety:

Quote:
The similar effects of the antagonists, which are incapable of crossing the blood-brain barrier, suggest that intake and digesta retention responses associated with casein ingestion are peripherally mediated in a synergistic fashion involving both opioid and CCK receptors.


Also interesting - effects on insulin:
Quote:
Although premeal loads of casein increased insulin compared with amino acids, the effects of the antagonist treatments were similar in rats given either casein or amino acids. Postprandial insulin release in dogs due to dietary casomorphin or a peptic digest of casein was blocked by the opioid antagonist naloxone but not in those fed a liver extract-sucrose meal (14Citation ). Finding that opioid antagonists lowered insulin in rats treated with premeal loads of amino acids to a similar extent as rats treated with premeal loads of casein indicates that casomorphins are not likely the only stimulus of insulin release after ingestion of milk protein. In the present experiment, naltrexone, which blocks both peripheral and central opioid receptors, had a greater effect at lowering postprandial insulin than naloxone methiodide, which specifically blocks peripheral opioid receptors. This suggests that a central opioid mechanism that is related to dietary amino acids may exist in addition to the peripheral influence of casomorphins that mediates this effect on postprandial insulin. Furthermore, the changes in circulating insulin without corresponding changes in glucose may also contribute to a central effect of insulin on satiety (15Citation ).


That worried me until I read that the preparation included skim milk. That could smack someone's insulin around.

Quote:
The lack of an antagonist effect in rats given premeal loads of amino acids compared with casein supports the overall hypothesis that peptide fractions of casein, known as casomorphins, are responsible for a reduction in intake. The only definitive method to determine whether casomorphins are responsible for the intake-suppressive effects of casein is to administer these peptides directly. However, postabsorptive delivery of free peptides and their susceptibility to intestinal hydrolysis may influence their relative activities compared with peptides within intact casein (10Citation ). Another concern is related to the potential opioid and CCK bioactivity of isolated soy protein, used as the protein source in the basal diet. Pepsin hydrolysates of other protein sources including wheat and bovine serum albumin may contain peptides with opioid activity as indicated by naloxone reversible inhibition of adenylate cyclase activity in cell homogenates (3Citation ). However, a fraction of soy protein did not exhibit opioid activity with this procedure compared with these other protein sources (3Citation ). In this experiment, premeal loads of 0.25 g of casein resulted in effects that were reversed by opioid and CCK-A antagonists even though the rats were receiving >1.5 g of isolated soy protein from their diet. Others have found that premeal loads of albumen, another intact protein source, will cause CCK-A antagonist reversible intake suppression compared with premeal loads of amino acids, carbohydrates or fat (24Citation ,25Citation ). Comparisons between different protein sources in relation to their effects on CCK or opioid-antagonist reversible-inhibition of intake suppression would help determine whether opioid activity is specific to a few identified protein sources such as casein, albumen or wheat.


Opioid activity from albumen (egg white)? This is news to me.

Grant money - Supported by a grant from the National Dairy Council.

Nothing in any of these about direct travel of casomorphin into the brain. Perhaps instead of a nutrition journal, we'd have to dig around in some neurology journals.
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  #30   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-07, 15:12
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Quote:
Nothing in any of these about direct travel of casomorphin into the brain. Perhaps instead of a nutrition journal, we'd have to dig around in some neurology journals.

Perhaps because they weren't looking there.

Personally, eating milk products never affected my calorie intake in a positive way.

Quote:
I admit I'll be happier if milk is safe, since people drink so much of it in this country. But I am trying to keep an open mind here. If I had to guess, I would guess that it's no good for some people, and fine for some people.

Yeah, I know. I struggled with the same thing but my own experiments were pretty compelling. I still get small amounts of dairy products and I don't sweat it much. I think it is optimal to not drink milk probably for everyone but how much of a difference it makes is probably different for people.

But probably most of the world's population doesn't drink milk past infancy and does just fine.
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