I couldn't agree more. Ever since I have given up dairy except for a little 1/2&1/2 in my coffee and very occasionally cheese, I can BREATHE. I go to bed breathing from both nostrils and wake up the same. Eventually, I'll give it up altogether. I've listened to what my body was/is telling me.

However, I know many who do not appear to be bothered at all by dairy, even consuming it all day long. Yes, perplexing, isn't it?

Laps (reindeer) Mongol (horses) Masai (cows) are the ones that spring to mind. Milk, Yoghurt, cheese, blood, meat, clothing, building materials all from their animals. No doubt they eat/ate berries in season too, but basically it's following the animals following the grass. Who needs agriculture?

Btw. I'm one of the ones who isn't affected by dairy of any kind. I avoid fresh milk now because of the carbs, but I avoid any carbs equally. I used to get bloated from eating rice. For me carbs equals bloat. Carbohydrate ferments. Fermentation equals gas. Gas- not good. That said, I think raw dairy is healthier. That's why we keep dairy goats. But I can't comment on wether someone who is sensitive to pasteurized dairy is less likely to be so with raw.

Well, I doubt raw would help, it's the protein in dairy that I'm sensitive to, casein. So raw or not it is still there. Although there are different types of casein and I think goat casein bothers me less. I just got over a bout of sinus problems that I think goat milk kefir might have aggravated though.... anyway, I don't really want to experiment until my sinuses are really and truly clear.

Heh, my weight stalls when I blink. Seriously, I've done many an elimination diet and there is no one (or two, or three) thing(s) that make me stall.

I switched to Paleo from Atkins because it seemed to me that it was a more 'natural' way to eat, ie, Paleo peoples did not drink soda or eat artificial sweeteners. I like real food, and believe that my genetic heritage prefers real food, too.

As for dairy, I have some sensitivities. I stuff up when eating eggs (frequent) or drinking milk/cream, but rarely when I eat hard cheese. Soft cow's milk cheese I don't digest well, but appear to be fine with goat and sheep.

Which reminds me, I don't know if anyone's read Chet Day's fine article on Paleo nutrition on BeyondVeg.com, but I highy recommend it. It's a long article, with a lot to, if you'll pardon the pun, digest.

M

That's like saying that sucking on petroleum is the closest thing to driving.

Milk is for baby cows. MEAT is for people. OK?

I'm reading that now! It's great to see something in a timeline like that.

Oh wow! The first part before that is the author's shift from a raw, vegan diet.

Hi Hybrid. You been gone way too long, man.

I essentially feel the same as you do, although your colorful analogies are better than mine. I always have this image of trying to milk a wild animal, and I just don't think it would be worth it.

I still have a little 1/2 & 1/2 and a little cheese now and again, though progressively less and less. I'll be catching and eating small furry animals (fur and all) in no time!

Interesting NancyLC. I thought I had read that, but apparently hadn't! (Maybe I've confused it with something else?) Either way, I'm going back to (re)read it.

Sorry, I'm blathering a lot kind of thinking through some of these things for myself.
Hmmm... still reading this thing but I did find this:
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-...terview2e.shtml


Another good, but unrelated point:

Lest we think that paleo is superior to modern practices in everything. It isn't.

Read this guys entire journey through the raw foodist/vegan thing and you see some of the same logic mistakes people make about that being done here too. If you're sick it is your fault for not adhering closely enough, the diet is perfect and you shouldn't be sick. If you're sick you're "detoxing". All things that people on any sort of diet use as reasoning.

I know this won't be a popular opinion but I think this applies to the raw milk thing too. The reasoning is that processed milk isn't good for us because it is processed but raw milk is because it is natural. But natural doesn't necessarily mean something is good, there are loads of natural things that are quite very bad for us. I think we all realize that. Natural milk is good for the baby critter it was meant for, but is it good for humans? Yes, if the option is starvation or nutrients lacking in the diet. The real question is, is it optimal or sub-optimal in the modern human diet in the context most of us are living in? Here's where I think it gets foofy and hard to answer because we don't have a lot of data backed up by good science. You have to test it out in your body. Is your body ok with it or does it give you increased mucous, sinus infections, allergies, IBS or acne?

But to do this we need to have a point of reference where we think we're eating good foods that don't compromise our health. That's where I think an elimination diet comes in handy and having a relatively stable base point to make the comparison. No IBS, no sinus symptoms, no chronic stuffy nose, no strange rashes, no brain fog.

Personally I'm still striving to get to that point. It's really hard because I have to battle the call of the vending machine.

This is facinating stuff Nancy. I lean toward Paleo way of eating, realizing that I'll NEVER get there, but striving for an approximation that will work for me. And to think that everything will be somehow "better" for us as it is more paleo-ish, is not necessarily true from my POV. We may have the genes of a former "-lith" but we do not live in that environment - no one on earth does any more. I like the neolith that I am in that I can recognize this "conundrum" so-to-speak, and thrive.

We so easily confuse mind and body needs, voluntarily can’t tell the one from another.

Why don’t these “many” eliminate dairy for a month? And only then declare.

Well, that's their choice. It's a good recommendation, but very unlikely since the cattle/dairy industries have been allowed to set policy in this country. Essentially, I've given up on trying to overturn anyone's dietary beliefs, and can only hope to set a good example instead. If asked, I'll tell. Otherwise, they are on their own. I've seen some of the most intelligent people balk candidly at the idea of "evolutionary eating" - so much so that I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with intelligence at all. It's an emotional thing. Like politics. -- One may get a response like "You're trying to take away my _____________ (insert emotional need here, like milk, icecream, french fries, candy, bread, guns, etc.)

Proteus, in no case did I mean conversion (learnt quite well Newton’s third law ), rather pointed out ‘I eat dairy-it-doesn’t- bother me-at-all’ delusion….…of passion.

No doubt, setting an example is the only win-win option.

Eating is extremely emotional to most people. The thought of permanently giving up a food is terribly traumatic. I know it was for me. Giving up an entire group of them, like dairy, was especially.

I thought it was because pasturizing destroys some of the enzymes naturally in the milk that would aid in digestion?

I had a little incident with a raspberry mousse this weekend. I think it was actually good enough to make up for the allergy attack I'm having this morning.