Right now, I know that I don't have a positive relationship with food. I'm scared of it, because it's almost like a drug to me- addicting!

I always plan out my meals days in advance. I always need to know the calorie, carb, fiber, fat, whatever... in everything! That surely is beyond being careful... That is obsession with food.

The reason that The Warrior Diet worked for me is because, if I use up X-number of my daily calories early in the day, I automatically panic.

I'm actually kind of panicking now. I've had 400 calories and around 50 carbs, and it is only 10am. Now a normal person wouldn't be panicing... But I am so worried that if I don't save up and store my calories/carbs now, that I won't have any to spare later on, when I will binge, regardless of how I've done.

That is my mentality... Silly, I know, but I can't help it.

Sounds to me like you've gotten caught up in the "addictive" part of higher carb eating.

This isn't a weakness or lack of willpower on your part - this business of bingeing in the evenings or on weekends - it's because you're caught in this cycle of eating higher carb foods, and then subsequently craving them.

I think the answer to this whole dilemma is to go back to induction-level carbohydrates for a week so that you can get those cravings in check. Eat as much as you need to eat while battling the cravings for sugar and refined carbs, meaning - go ahead and eat steak and eggs for breakfast if need be. This time, it's not about the calories, but rather - about reining in those cravings. Once the cravings for carbs have subsided somewhat, if you're still looking to lose weight, you can address the calorie side of things. But you'll never be able to do that if you're constantly dealing with this crave/binge cycle.

You're on some kind of roller coaster and it's time to get off.

You know that awful feeling you get after you've overeaten the higher carb foods? You were saying that you'll sometimes eat "till it hurts"....

Write those things down in a small notebook every time it happens. When you feel the need to binge, pull out this notebook and read all the entries - it might help you avoid a binge.

Hang in there, and I hope you manage to put a damper on those cravings soon.

Sara

What has helped me to stop binging is to accept me for who I am, not restrict myself too much in terms of calories, and believe deeply in low carb as a healthy way to nourish my body. Realize also that binging is like an addiction. It is really tough to abstain from it in the beginning but in time you will get used to it. There's been times when I'd wanted to eat cookies or french bread or chocolate, but when I think about how my poor body has to deal with all those carbs -- I feel like it goes into a state of "shock" after being bombard with a ton of sugars -- I get headachy, hungry, I feel crazy, drowsy, panicky -- well it doesn't feel worth it anymore. What a terrible way of treating my body.

I've allowed myself to overeat on occasions, but I do it with full self-awareness, which takes binging out of the picture. I've also learned that emotional eating is very very hard to overcome. I worked with books from Geneen Roth regarding this and of course, it all made so much sense after reading them, but actually getting myself to change takes lots of effort and time. In fact, in the beginning, it seemed unnatural and fake, as I tried to be kind to myself when I screwed up or when I caught myself being too harsh to myself. Little by little, with more self-kindness, self-acceptance, and eating with self-awareness, I feel like my eating is more "normal" -- ie I eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm comfortably full. I've been nearly 3 months free of binging/purging. The view now looks more clear than it did a few months ago. So give yourself TIME, be PATIENT, and be kind to yourself. If you screw up, learn from your experience, and then try again. Believe it or not, "normal" people sometimes eat emotionally too. Sometimes they will eat when they're not hungry, eat too much until it hurts, but the difference is that they allow themselves to do that on occasions, do not go on guilt trips afterwards, and then they get back to eating healthy portions again.

Good luck! I know you can do this.

Sara-
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think this is about cravings. I binge, and it's not about the actual food, and I don't always eat high-carb foods. After doing strict induction for 2 weeks, I still got these twinges where I wanted to binge. The thing about Atkins is, because I didn't have to count calories, I would think it was okay for me to eat these massive amounts of food. And maybe it is okay for someone who doesn't have a binging problem. But for me it was unacceptable, and made me even more depressed, and even though I didn't have cravings, I had the desire to binge. I know you think that this is a simple matter of not following the plan correctly, and having cravings, but as someone who goes through this every day, I'm telling you that's not what it is. It's much bigger than that, and not easily fixed with a week of induction. A week of induction is like the warrior diet and any other thing one might try to justify their behavior. It covers up the real problem without repairing anything. This has to be a life change for those of us who binge, not a week of induction or any other band-aid we might come across.

I do love the idea of a notebook. If I had to read all of the things I felt when I binged or felt like it, I think it would keep me from it.
Mary

I can't imagine being able to overeat while being aware. It's such a mindless activity for me, I just am not there yet. This is probably the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with, or even recognize in myself. It's so hard not to beat myself up over a slip up too. I just can't believe how bad it gets sometimes.

This must be an amazing feeling. I can't wait until I get there.
Congratulations!

Being aware simply means being focused and being squarely in the present. While you are eating whatever you're eating, ask yourself how do you feel? How does the food taste? Ask yourself why you are eating? If you're not hungry, ask will this food help to get rid of whatever emotional discomfort you have? Ask yourself if it is really food that you want? Ask yourself if you could have anything right now, what would you choose? A day off from work? A bubble bath? A good book? A lover? A car? Ask questions and be kind and honest with yourself. The problem with binging is that you are not in touch with yourself and reality. You eat and you eat quickly, but you don't really taste, right? You eat and eat until it hurts. It's "mindless" like you said. When you ask questions and give yourself honest answers, that's how you can become self-aware. You can't fix whatever you need to fix if you don't know what exactly is wrong. At first you may not want to stop eating, but the more you do full conscious eating, the better you can become at knowing who you are and why you do the things you do. In my view, that's the first step to stop emotional eating.

I think setting more 'limitations' on yourself is gonna possibly lead to a bigger binge down the road. Mary is right and I think we are both speaking from personal experience...to really get this behavoir undercontrol (not sure if it's ever completely 'cureable') one really needs to dig deep inside and discover why this behavoir happens, then work on self-healing.

I also think that it's a lot easier to say something than to actually do it. All of the suggestions that you've made, Serralind, are great, but it's just not that simple. When you're going through something, and are "in the thick of it" it's hard to look inside yourself and focus on the choice you truly want to make. I do want to stop binging, but I know that this isn't going to happen overnight. I'm going to be proud of my small victories. I ended a 4 day binge. I shouldn't have done it in the first place, but the more important thing is that I made the choice to end it. I am proud of myself. It may be a baby step, but it's a step, and today I will try to be more aware. Just know that I appreciate your advice, and I am trying to use it. I'll also try to treat myself better, in how I eat, as well as forgiving myself.

Mary

I tend to get bingey at times too. Not anything massive usually, just to the point of discomfort, then beyond sometimes. Lately that behavior has been going away, for the most part. I think there might be two reasons for it:

1) I am totally off gluten, following a Celiac diet. There seems to be something very addictive in gluten for me that makes me just want to shovel it in.

2) I started taking a bunch of supplements for what I think is FMS and I think it is doing something to my serotonin. I've actually had to stop eating a regular meal because I was full and didn't want more. That is utterly unheard of for me.

Anyway, I hope this continues. I'm really trying to listen to my body. I allow myself a couple of treats each week (potatoes usually) and 1-2 small squares of chocolate each evening (low sugar stuff). But otherwise I'm pretty strict wiht calories and carbs.

Mary,

I'm sorry for the way I made it sound so simple. I apologize for the somewhat "pat" reply I posted. You're right, it's not simply a matter of counting carbs.

Believe it or not, I *do* understand what you're talking about, and perhaps I should flesh out my original response a bit more.

Here goes...

I've spent nearly five years in recovery from bulimia and compulsive eating. Two of those years, I was seeing a therapist (1-2x per week) who was a specialist in eating disorders. At the same time, I was going to a hospital support group run by an organization called "ANAD" (Awareness Network around Disordered Eating) at Lion's Gate Hospital in North Vancouver BC.

I've read all the Geneen Roth books, I've gone to workshops, 12-step groups and seen numerous doctors and specialists to deal with my eating disorder.

I've worked through a *lot* of stuff, and yet....

For me personally, a *huge* part of this was the discovery that sugar and refined carbohydrates was indeed a major trigger/contributing factor in my disordered way of eating/exercising.

The beginning stages of my recovery from disordered eating were all about not dieting or overexercising. My counselor would repeatedly ask me to sign contracts promising I wouldn't diet.

Of course, I binged the whole time, which is how I came to gain all this weight in the first place.

But my counselor kept telling me that I first had to deal with the fact that by dieting/overexercising/taking laxatives etc., I was compensating for my binges. I couldn't deal with the bingeing until I took away that compensating behaviour.

The dieting and overexercising was all about self-hatred and guilt after a major binge cycle.

Funny thing is - how could I nuture myself enough to stop the bingeing if I was tormenting myself with guilt & self-hatred after a binge? So the whole idea became about allowing myself to overeat without compensating for it, without hating myself afterwards.

Then, and only then - could I nuture myself enough to deal with the reason I was overeating in the first place, which...in my case, was fear of my own feelings. Not wanting to feel, not wanting to hear, not wanting to see, not wanting to "know" what my spirit was trying to say.

Bingeing (for me) is about shoving my feelings aside, covering them up...smoothing them over. It's about a bad feeling inside...and smothering that bad feeling with food. Shutting it all down.

Making that feeling (whatever it was) shut the hell up...because I couldn't handle it. Or so I thought.

Make sense?

Now how in the world would I ever feel safe enough to "go there" if I was continually beating myself up in a hailstorm of self-hatred over having binged?

So the counselor was right (in my case) to coach me through to the point where I was able to stop the practice of compensating for bingeing with self-destructive dieting/overexercising and truly hateful self-talk.

This is where the Geneen Roth books came into play.

I learned to simply be aware of the bingeing...without heaping piles of guilt and hatred on myself. I became friends with me again by way of allowing myself to eat whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted.

Oddly...this had the effect of increasing my feeling of safety.

I could go to my counselling sessions and talk about things that I couldn't face before...knowing that I could go home and pig out. I could go home and shut it all off again.

When I began to express concern about the amount of bingeing I was doing, my counselor would say things like, "It's ok, we'll deal with that, but first we need to deal with (insert previously ignored issue)".

And so it went.

I gained a ton of weight, and went from 109 lbs. to more than 200lbs. during that time period.

Frightening isn't it?

But...the really scary thing wasn't the weight, but rather...feeling my feelings. I was far more afraid of my own feelings than I ever was about gaining weight.

Here's where it gets interesting.

I managed to get some semblance of control over my overeating, but would still binge occasionally.

Here's where the low-carb thing comes into play. And for me, it's very important.

Yes, I ate a lot of food during the first couple of weeks of induction. I took Dr. Atkins' instructions seriously in that I certainly did *not* worry about calories. I ate and and ate and ate. Everything from bacon-wrapped filet mignons to hollandaise covered eggs.

It didn't work.

It worked about as well as a glass of club soda "works" for a stuggling alcoholic left alone with his or her feelings for awhile.

Suddenly, I didn't have a way out, a means of shutting things down.

Yet...the physical cravings subsided after about 10 days.

All that was left were the emotional cravings.

Speaking of which...I think of 'emotional eating' as 'unemotional eating' because that's what it really is...at least for me.

By allowing myself to eat as much as I wanted (of induction acceptable foods) during those first weeks, I clued into how well sugar and refined carbohydrates do the "job" of getting rid of my feelings.

I really wasn't hungry. I mean...I was eating tons and tons of induction acceptable foods..and nothing was "working" for me.

During the last several months, I've learned how to get real with my feelings. No, I'm not saying it's been some miracle as a result of low-carbing...I know for a fact that those years of counselling and eating disorder support groups made a huge difference too. At least, those things helped me become aware, got me talking and feeling again.

I'm even more emotional these days. And I think that's healthy, I really do.

It's unhealthy not to feel.

Speaking of which - did you see that thread in the "War Zone" where that guy had asked if anyone experienced an increase in anxiety and depression as a result of low-carb eating?

I wanted to reply to that thread because it really wasn't all that surprising to me that by taking away the one thing that "works" for a person in terms of smothering one's own feelings practically to death, one could easily end up with a fair amount of anxiety. I didn't reply because it seemed like the original poster had disappeared.

Anyway...I'm getting off topic here.

So to wind up this rather long post of mine, I'd like to say once again...

Going back to induction might actually help.

And I *know* lotsa people will still eat a ton of food even if they're sticking with plan.

And I also don't think it'll "work", if you know what I mean.

Once again, sorry if my previous post seemed rather pat or simplistic.

Sara

PS - here's some resource links that might be of interest:

http://www.anad.org/site/anadweb/ (main ANAD page)

http://www.geneenroth.com/ (Geneen Roth)

http://www3.telus.net/anad01/index.shtml (British Columbia ANAD page)

http://www.stpaulseatingdisorders.ca/mission.htm (St. Paul's ED Clinic)

http://www.something-fishy.org/ (good support site)

Akasha,

That's what I meant when I suggested going back to induction - I was suggesting this as a means of dealing with at least the physical cravings. I know there's an emotional (or unemotional) component to all of this, but if you want somewhere to start, you could try induction as a way of banishing the physical side of it all.

Then, you might be able to start working on the feelings underneath that are also part and parcel of this whole binge eating thing.

By the way, one of my favourite quotes is "Never go into your own head alone, it's not a safe neighbourhood". It's something my Dad shared with me, and it's a quote he heard in AA.

Why do I bring this up?

Because if you're dealing with disordered eating, there's a possibility that it has something to do with bad feelings...and sometimes, when you're not used to experiencing them (because of using food to cover them up), it really helps to have someone there to sort of hold your hand when you're stuck. A good friend, a partner...a support group. Whatever works.

Find someone to talk to. Someone to hug you when you inevitably come up against some sort of emotion that doesn't feel so good. And I say "inevitably" because if you nix the physical side of things by reducing the amount of sugar and carbohydrates, you're sure to start experiencing some "stuff".

I hope I'm making some sort of sense here.

Take care.

Sara

Hi Nancy. I was just wondering what supplements you were taken? What is FMS (sorry for the ignorance).


Anyway, I hope this continues. I'm really trying to listen to my body. I allow myself a couple of treats each week (potatoes usually) and 1-2 small squares of chocolate each evening (low sugar stuff). But otherwise I'm pretty strict wiht calories and carbs.[/QUOTE]


I too have been trying to listen to my body. This book I just started reading that I can't stop raving about is really helping me through it. At least now I know and have a moment of sanity mid-binge and can stop myself...before it was like I was invaded and possessed. Sounds funny, but it's such an out of control feeling (as many of us posting to this thread know).

I also have been trying not to totally 'deprive' myself since that's when my cravings are at their worse. Some days, one meal, I will eat higher carb, not necessarily always pasta or potatoes, sometimes it's just a little bit of one, but I don't 'dwell' on it and obsess, I just eat it.

Do you think it would be good to maybe do the same with let's say sugary things, like chocolate? I mean I heard that if you eat the 'forbidden'foods more often they will be removed from your 'forbidden list' entirely. Lately, it seems my cravings for starchy stuff are at bay whereas if i crave\binge it's for sweeter sugary things....i am wondering if it is because i restrict myself from the sugary things moreso and have occassionaly added in starchy things (so my cravings diminished for them). Let me know what you think. I sense you would be good to advise me on this. You seem to have more of a grasp and more control on your eating than some of us (myself very much included)
You seem to be at a step in the ladder that some of us are aspiring to be at. Myself I am just on the first rung.

Sorry. I had someone try to teach me how the quote thing works I obviously need to go for a lesson #2. I muffed up your quotes Nancy, I apologize

Mary, I didn't mean to simplifly it. It's not simple. I am just saying eating with self-awareness and treating yourself kindly is the FIRST (of many steps) step to undo the binging cycle.

Sara, great posts. I am glad you found some help with Geneen Roth. I read all her books as well and at first allowed myself to eat whatever I wanted. That meant plenty of carbs. And I did gain weight too. Then I discover that I didn't have to eat carbs in order to free myself. There is an adult inside me. Being kind to myself doesn't mean being self-indulgent. It means being responsible and taking care of myself. I know the havoc carbs can cause in my body. So then I made the connection that lowcarb = physical self-nourishment. After that point, I didn't look at carbs the same way again.

Well, no. I don't think I'm a good role model. I think avoidance is the biggest part of my not-bingeing strategy. If I bring something home and binge on it, it goes into the trash and I won't bring home any more of that except in 1-2 serving size.

If I get very bittersweet chocolate, I won't binge on it. Actually, I did binge on it once but after that first time I got a tummy ache if I had more than 1-2 pieces. If the chocolate had a lot of sugar, I'd scarf it up, I'm sure. But I found the bittersweet stuff doesn't affect me like that. And I love it all the same.

I don't think giving into starchy things you crave badly is good. I think it will only lead to over indulging. I would suggest if you're going to eat carbs eat ones you enjoy, but won't binge on. For me that is things like a baked potato. Another tip is to do it at dinner time, so if you do over indulge it doesn't lead to an entire day of it.

I once tried a strategy of taking a food I couldn't stop eating and eat it until I didn't want more. Basically, it didn't happen. I ate it, and ate it, and ate it... when I ran out I got more. After a few days of that, I gave up. That clearly wasn't going to work.

Right now I'm taking 5-htp, SAM-e and St. Johns Wort. I think it might be the SAM-e responsible for the change in my eating, or perhaps the 5-htp. I haven't been on SJW long enough for it to take effect, it takes about a month. Or it might be something about eating gluten makes me pig out. I'm suspicious because it was mostly high-gluten foods that I binged on.

I had a conversation on another message forum as to whether or not binge behavior can be permanently fixed and I've also discussed it with my SIL who is a psychologist. No one that I talked to had ever fixed their binge behavior, except one person maybe. Everyone had to rely on things like avoidance of triggers and such. My SIL suggested it is a behavior that is incredibly difficult to change and avoidance is the best way to stop. She cited a story of a man who would only eat ice cream during a full moon and that was his way of controlling his habit of over-eating ice cream. And you wouldn't bring it to your home, you would go out to have it.

In a diet I was (am sort of still) on you got to have "free meals". Which you can imagine were incredible binge fests. One night I was trying to do a refeed and I got physically ill. Eventually I figured out it was very destructive so I set some rules. I could have 1 yummy thing and ice cream only once every other week. Stuff like that. After that it got easier to control my over-eating while doing this diet. In fact, I haven't had ice cream in a long time.

But there are some things I never could control myself around... Popcorn, graham crackers, cookies, ice cream, really good bread. So that stuff has to stay away from my environment. Although I've recently discovered gluten is bad for me so it is easier to resist since I equate it with poison now.

Finally I think everyone needs treats but you have to find ones that don't set off bingeing or discover a way you can have ones that would set off bingeing except you have it in an environment where you can't binge. Like for me, if I brought a half gallon of ice cream home, I'd binge. If I buy ice cream at a shop and eat a single serving, I do just fine.

Ah yes, Geneen Roth. That was the person who suggested if you gave into your cravings, and I think, sate them entirely, you could get them to go away. It absolutely and entirely didn't work for me. I remember reading some of her stuff years ago. To me, I think fixing the problem is fixing the behavior, not trying to find some deeply hidden psychological problem that may or may not exist. The things that do seem to work is to find strategies for avoiding the triggers and minimizing the damage when you fail the first step.