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  #226   ^
Old Mon, Nov-25-13, 09:46
kjs1775's Avatar
kjs1775 kjs1775 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 930
 
Plan: Atkins Indunction (DANDR)
Stats: 205/202/130 Female 5'2 or 62''
BF:42%/???/28%
Progress: 28%
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Thank you for posting this! Because of this I knew exactly what to do yesterday when I started getting flu like- muscle achy symptoms. 1 cup of broth and I was 100% better!!
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  #227   ^
Old Mon, Nov-25-13, 09:54
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie OFS
I could write a book: "Stupid Things I Have Done and Their Consequences." But it would be pretty embarrassing!

On the upside - I do learn from those consequences!


Keep me in mind if you need someone to write a foreword. I'm more than qualified.
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  #228   ^
Old Fri, Apr-25-14, 12:04
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Say NO to Diabetes!
Posts: 8,671
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/228/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 92%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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I'm glad I was steered onto this post from another post. I never add salt and I don't often eat selections high in salt. Based on info from the original post, this might explain the muscle twitches I've gotten from time to time since going low carb. My borderline High BP has dropped to normal since going low-carb. Perhaps I should try adding a little more salt to my diet and see if that will get rid of the twitches and still keep my BP normal.
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  #229   ^
Old Fri, Apr-25-14, 17:21
ringamajig's Avatar
ringamajig ringamajig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,280
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 237.0/209.0/160 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: 36%
Location: Northern CA
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I have been having lots of muscle fatigue, leg cramps, hand cramps, stomach and side cramps. I stopped drinking my broth and this is what I get. Back on the broth yesterday, scale up 1.8 this morning, but I feel so much better.
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  #230   ^
Old Sun, Apr-27-14, 07:35
Daci's Avatar
Daci Daci is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 72
 
Plan: Hflc
Stats: 150/138/130 Female 5 foot 3 inches
BF:
Progress: 60%
Location: Near new Bern NC USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I'm looking at my salt intake on days I've recorded pretty well. It's WAY low, even having a little cheese and such. Of course, I don't record added salt, but I don't add a lot of salt.

.


MIne is not what it should be, as i don't use a lot of salt either.
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  #231   ^
Old Tue, May-13-14, 06:19
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,507
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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New article on Salt by Dr. Malcolm Kedrick

http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2014/0...is-good-for-you

SALT is good for You

Quote:
One of the most pervasive and stupid things that we are currently told to do is to reduce salt intake. This advice has never been based on controlled clinical studies, ever. Yet, as with the cholesterol myth, the dogma that we should all reduce salt intake has become impervious to facts. I find that the ‘salt hypothesis’ is rather like a monster from a 1950s B movie. Every time you attack it with evidence it simply shrugs it off and grows even stronger.

Very recently, a study was done in Australia looking at salt intake. Actually it looked at sodium intake, not salt intake. I find this interesting, as no-one that I know eats sodium. In fact, it would be interesting to see someone try. To quote from Wikipedia

‘Sodium is generally less reactive than potassium and more reactive than lithium. Like all the alkali metals, it reacts exothermically with water, to the point that sufficiently large pieces melt to a sphere and may explode; this reaction produces caustic sodium hydroxide and flammable hydrogen gas.’

Consuming two grams sodium would likely cause you to explode, splattering sodium hydroxide over the walls. Along with various organs and other body parts.

So why do people talk about sodium consumption? I have never really worked this one out. But it does make things rather confusing. The latest guidelines suggest we should consume less than 2300mg of sodium a day, even as low as 1500mg. Go on, try it. Any idea how much salt (NaCl) that would be? Any idea how much salt you consume every day? No, thought not.

Yes, we have been given guidelines that are totally meaningless, and impossible to follow. In fact 2300mg of sodium is roughly 6000mg of salt (NaCl). So why are we not advise to eat six grams of salt a day? I have no idea. Perhaps someone can tell me. What is this sodium nonsense? [Not that anyone has any idea what six grams of salt even looks like poured out of a salt shaker – I know, I have tried this several times.]

Of course, when I started looking into this area, I went at it sideways. If we eat salt we are eating both sodium, and chloride. You cannot have one without the other. So I became interested in the chloride issue, not the sodium. We are always warned about sodium, but no-one ever mentions chloride levels. Is there any evidence that high chloride consumption is bad for us?

This is an area mostly defined by silence, and zero research. But I have found a few papers looking at chloride levels in the blood and, guess what? They have all found that a low chloride level is associated with a higher mortality. Here is one such, entitled ‘Serum chloride is an independent predictor of mortality in hypertensive patients.’

‘Low, not high Serum Chloride- (<100 mEq/L), is associated with greater mortality risk independent of obvious confounders. Further studies are needed to elucidate the relation between Cl- and risk.’ (view here)

There you go. Having a low chloride level makes it more likely you will die early. Yet, having a high level of sodium consumption makes is supposed to kill you? And you cannot eat sodium without eating chloride at the same time. Go figure. You mean you can’t?

Anyway, to return to the, not yet published Australian study, here is what they found.

‘In a multivariate-adjusted model, those who consumed less than 3000 mg of sodium per day had a 25% increased risk of all-cause mortality and cardiovascular events compared with those who consumed between 4000 mg and 5990 mg/day (reference group).’ [1]

The guidelines tell us to eat less than 2300mg of salt. At this level, if we use the Australian data, overall mortality will be increased by 25%. Excellent advice then. And this is not just one contradictory study. Several other trials have clearly demonstrated that reducing salt intake significantly increases mortality in high risk patients. Particularly those with heart failure, where it would be expected that salt reduction would have the greatest benefit. Yet the trials showed the exact opposite.

As explained in the Journal Stroke. The section I have quoted below is taken from a reply to an article entitled “Reducing Sodium Intake to Prevent Stroke: Time for Action, Not Hesitation” In this article Appel, the author, argues strongly that we must, absolutely must, reduce sodium intake. In reply, three cardiologists make the following points:

‘In regards to patient-oriented outcomes, Appel dismisses randomized trials in patients with heart failure as irrelevant because of the unconventional treatment approach of the investigators. Yet these trials—showing increases in hospitalizations and mortality with low-sodium intake versus normal-sodium intake—tested identical diets in intervention and comparison arms with the only difference being the level of ingested sodium (making these trials more relevant than DASH-Sodium and other trials Appel cites). Also, Appel fails to cite 3 relevant heart failure trials, all consistently show harm with reduced sodium intake.’ [2]

In short, Appel, along with most ‘experts’ in this area had dismissed evidence he did not like.

The simple fact is this. If you strip out all the data on salt consumption there is considerably more, and considerably more powerful data, suggesting a strong link between low salt consumption and increased mortality than the other way around.

In reality, you can eat just about as much salt as you can stand – without harm. (Unless you have damaged kidneys and/or very high blood pressure)

How can I possibly state this? Well, a very wise Swedish professor pointed something out to me a few years ago. If a patient is very ill in hospital and cannot eat, or drink, they will have a drip put up to replace fluids. This very often contains 0.9% NaCl. Or nine grams of salt per litre. Quite often the patient will have two litres of this replacement fluid a day – which is (as you may have figured) 18 grams of salt.

So, we quite happy to give critically ill patients 18 grams of salt per day to help them get better – which has no discernable effect on their blood pressure, or anything else. Yet we tell people that they cannot eat more than six grams a day. Ho, ho. You earthlings are so funny.

References (may require site registration or membership to access)
[1] http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle...9?src=emailthis
[2] http://webappmk.doctors.org.uk/Sess....114.005067.pdf to be published soon
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  #232   ^
Old Tue, May-13-14, 06:46
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
How can I possibly state this? Well, a very wise Swedish professor pointed something out to me a few years ago. If a patient is very ill in hospital and cannot eat, or drink, they will have a drip put up to replace fluids. This very often contains 0.9% NaCl. Or nine grams of salt per litre. Quite often the patient will have two litres of this replacement fluid a day – which is (as you may have figured) 18 grams of salt.


I find this part the most interesting. I guess one difference though is that dietary salt might cause acute swings in sodium in the blood, and various necessary hormonal responses, compared to I.V.

Slow infusion of glucose through I.V. might also be relatively harmless, delivering glucose to the system with a much lower insulin response than if a similar amount of glucose were eaten over the course of the day as meals.

Just playing devil's advocate, I'm more likely to worry about getting enough salt than too much.
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  #233   ^
Old Tue, May-13-14, 08:21
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,880
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Salt is good for you

Eat your salt!
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  #234   ^
Old Tue, May-13-14, 13:56
Verbena Verbena is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,057
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 186/155/150 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 86%
Location: SW PNW
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I don't particularly like salty foods. I don't try to avoid salt, I just naturally tend not to want it. The one time I tried purposefully upping my salt intake was last year in response to what I read on this forum, and it made me feel seriously not well. I wonder if we have any sort of self regulating system within us for salt? Given the freedom to choose how much to consume, without contradictory advice from "experts", would we naturally choose the amount necessary for (our own personal) good health? I hope so, as I really don't want to feel I am shortchanging myself by not adding salt to everything I eat.
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  #235   ^
Old Tue, May-13-14, 14:19
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I actually think the advice is more necessary for newbies. First time I did Atkins, I ended up with serious electrolyte issues. I think my body just wasn't properly adapted. Later, eating pretty much the same way, I wouldn't get the issues. I've sort of seen the same thing watching friends doing successive water fasts on line. Weight loss was less dramatic the second and third times around, most likely due to reduced water loss, and maybe reduced potassium and sodium loss to go with it. I do try to get extra sodium and potassium in, but I can't really say that I've noticed anything horrible happening when I don't.

It's a YRMV thing. Stephen Phinney swears salt is necessary for exercise performance, Tim Noakes says salt and water to appetite.
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  #236   ^
Old Tue, May-13-14, 15:45
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,880
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I think so too, actually. Although I do admit I often got leg and foot cramps on VLC, even with lots of salt, potassium, magnesium, and so on.
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  #237   ^
Old Tue, May-13-14, 16:33
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I take all three too. Not sure how much I need them, but it's hard to see much risk in the precaution. When I did have the symptoms, it included the scary heart flutter stuff, so I'd rather take more than I might need than too little.
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  #238   ^
Old Wed, May-14-14, 07:16
keith v's Avatar
keith v keith v is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 730
 
Plan: Wheat belly
Stats: 235/220/200 Male 6 feet 2 inches
BF:
Progress: 43%
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA Earth
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I had a crazy salt dream last night, like the entire salt shaker on my dinner...people were commenting and very concerned! LOL I was like, I like salt

I do salt my food, drink ton of vegetable juice and even eat salt on it's own, But I feel terrible if I don't.
I think some people need more than others and if you feel good, you are good.
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  #239   ^
Old Wed, May-14-14, 17:49
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 10,116
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I think so too, actually. Although I do admit I often got leg and foot cramps on VLC, even with lots of salt, potassium, magnesium, and so on.

me too, Nancy.... and when I sure I will get them, I take an extra potassium along with my calcium and mag at night. If I get bad ones, I drink more salt water then go back to bed. Next morning weigh in is not good, but at least I got some sleep!
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  #240   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-14, 13:10
Womb's Avatar
Womb Womb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 236
 
Plan: Atkins '72
Stats: 365/301/140 Female 5"9'
BF:
Progress: 28%
Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
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This thread is blowing my mind! So from what I've been reading here, I'm to shoot for 5000mg of sodium per day? How would I know if I'm getting too much?
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