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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 01:31
finnz finnz is offline
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Posts: 51
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 187/166.5/160 Male 69 in
BF:
Progress: 76%
Location: Ireland
Default Do You Want Fat With That ?

Article in the Guardian this morning.

Interestingly, the author does not mention how much weight was lost.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/atki...1245541,00.html

The comments by Professor Nicholson :-

'"Atkins will probably accelerate heart disease and could negatively impact on other organ systems: we just don't know yet," says Nicholson.'

Well if he doesn't know, how can he say this??

Last edited by Kristine : Thu, Jun-24-04 at 08:54.
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 02:29
deleriad deleriad is offline
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Posts: 4
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/155.8/155 Male 68 inches
BF:
Progress: 97%
Default

I found this article very interesting. I was just about to post the link here until I saw someone already had.

What is interesting about it is that it reports in a pretty open-minded way a person's actual experiences. As someone who started on Atkins last February and found it a good way to lose weight as well as to eat in general I wouldn't want to make the same mistake that low-fat nutritionists did and assume it works for everyone.

Of the three other people I knew who did at the same time as me (this was coincidence) one succeeded for a while but then gave up and is now heavier than before he started and the other two never managed to follow it well enough to lose weight.

What is challenging for scientific orthodoxy is not that Atkins/low-carb works all the time but that it even works at all. I think the great benefit of Atkins will be that nutritionists will have to become vastly more sophisticated in their understanding of how different bodies processes food as well as the socio-cultural and environmental issues that affect this. The old "body as a car model" (you put in X litres of fuel and car goes Y miles before it needs more with a simple relationship between the two) is, I hope, on the way out.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 07:06
PacNW PacNW is offline
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Posts: 243
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 245/195/170 Male 5 10
BF:
Progress: 67%
Default

Do you want fat with that?

For three months, Alok Jha has been testing the health claims of the controversial Atkins diet. Find out here what happened when he cut the carbs
Alok Jha
Thursday June 24, 2004

The Guardian
The Mexican restaurant in downtown Dallas was the low point. Wandering the streets for more than an hour, I had peered into countless restaurant windows to find a menu that would meet my exacting needs, and ended up on the verge of starvation at the noisy cantina. Quickly ordering, I struggled to ignore a growling stomach while waiting for the food. Then disaster struck.

A waitress rushed up and set down a bowl of freshly-made tortilla chips. The smell was intoxicating and, as if with a life of its own, my hand reached out. In slow motion, chip moved towards mouth and stomach growled approval. But this was all wrong. Dropping the chip just milliseconds from my mouth, I reached for the bitter black coffee at the edge of the table.

A close escape. For the past three months, I have been on Dr Robert Atkins' infamous diet. Like millions before me, I have given up the majority of carbohydrates and made friends with full-fat mayonnaise, steaks and copious amounts of spinach. I threw out all fruit, bread, pasta, potatoes and rice, avoided the cakes and biscuits at the local supermarket and slowly forgot the taste of a pint of beer.

The Atkins diet has become a western phenomenon while igniting the most highly-charged nutritional controversy in history. The death of Atkins at 18 stone last April hasn't stemmed the flow. More than 30 million people are reported to have followed his advice at some stage and bread and potato sales have suffered, prompting a fightback: this week bakers launched the Vitality diet, which extols bread.

Meanwhile, Atkins Nutritionals continues to tout the many scientific studies that, it says, prove the success of its diet. And these keep coming - two months ago, researchers at Duke University published evidence that low carb may be more beneficial than traditionalists once thought.

We wanted to find out what happens when someone goes on the diet, scientifically. We wanted to test the claims made in Atkins' book that not only would this counter-intuitive diet make me lose weight, it would make me more energetic, satisfied and, crucially, healthier. The experiment saw biological chemists monitoring the trace molecules in my blood; dietitians calculating exactly how much of what had been eaten; and a psychologist measuring how my mood changed.

The standard high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet advice was introduced because of research published by professor Philip James of the Rowett Institute in Aberdeen in 1983. His work was based on an epidemiological study done in the Far East where people on high-carb, low-fat diets seemed to be living very healthily.

Scientific thinking behind nutrition was challenged by Atkins, a New York cardiologist. He turned it on its head when he published details of his diet more than 25 years ago. Fat, he argued, was not the enemy. What was making people ever bigger around the waist was not consumption of butter, cream or fatty meats but over-consumption of refined flour, sugar and potatoes. Carbohydrates were making us fat.

Atkins justified his idea with a compelling account of what happens in the body when people eat too many carbs. As levels of carbs (broken down into glucose in the bloodstream) rise, so does insulin. Insulin peaks cause sugar to be stored in the body as fat: Atkins even called insulin the "fattening hormone". Cutting carbs means that there are no surges in insulin, so avoiding the production of more fat.

Atkins also claimed that eating more proteins forces the kidneys to work harder to get rid of them and that this uses a lot of calories.

Critics were quick to point out that the Atkins diet seemed to be a recipe for heart disease. Eating a lot of fat (Atkins even says in his book that a low-fat version of his diet will not work) could not be a good thing.

Others said the diet was just a clever way of cutting calories. Textbooks tell us that carbohydrates are meant to make up around half our daily calorific intake. Take that out and you have a problem - how on Earth do you replace it? On average, a man needs 1,250 calories of carbs a day. If you want to replace that with, say, sirloin steaks, you need six quarter-pounders to make up the loss - a daily gorging found only on Japanese game shows.

Another way that Atkins eases calorie-restriction is to make eating inconvenient. There are virtually no snack foods on this diet, and a few weeks after starting, a handful of nuts a day or some strawberries or raspberries can be included. No crisps, chocolate bars or flapjacks in the middle of the afternoon.

What happened when I tried to live this way? New regime; new lifestyle. First, I bought more fresh foods from supermarkets - anything vaguely pre-prepared such as ready meals is usually sugar-loaded and so disallowed - and began to invent Atkins-friendly recipes. My kitchen has never seen so much action: unused Tupperware boxes were dusted off to store the masses of food I was suddenly cooking.

Monotony was a problem. I knew that I could eat as many chicken breasts, lamb steaks and pork chops as I wanted. But after a few days the novelty wore off and I stuck to normal portions.

"Most diets create preoccupation with food and subsequent overeating because they generate a sense of denial," says Jane Ogden, a psychologist at King's College London. "The foods being avoided in most diets are the foods people like to eat and the foods at the core of any meal." So we would probably crave cream cakes and pastries but wouldn't be so bothered about the core things Atkins denies - rice or pasta, for example.

So far, so healthy. But what about all that fat that suddenly has to be eaten? The calories I was getting from fat certainly increased during the experiment, and saturated fat made up a great part of the increase.

In his book, Atkins puts no limit on fat. But earlier this year, the Atkins company was in trouble for apparently changing its advice and saying that its diet should contain no more than 25% saturated fat - a far cry from the unlimited butter, cream and oils that devotees were apparently allowed to gorge on. But Atkins Nutritional quickly countered that none of their advice had changed and that proper Atkins dieters would tend to eat only 25% saturated fat.

Whatever the answer, the Atkins diet is not a licence to eat as much fat as you want. Cheese and cream are both restricted to around 100g and three tablespoons a day, and Atkins advises against eating any trans or hydrogenated fats (such as margarine or fats in many pre-prepared foods). And the caveat is that this increased fat intake is only all right as long as you cut carbs at the same time.

Some of Atkins's positive health claims are less credible. He reckons that people following his low-carb regime will see positive effects on their cholesterol, for example. The LDL (the bad type), he says, should decrease and HDL (the good type) should increase. Having more of the bad than the good kind increases the risk of heart disease.

Six weeks into the experiment for me saw the opposite effect to what Atkins predicted - my ratio of LDL shot up compared to my HDL cholesterol. My risk of heart disease had increased.

Catherine Collins, a clinical dietitian at St George's Hospital in London, explains that my rise in LDL cholesterol is entirely predictable from the usual dietetic models. "Your body was being saturated with an amount of fat you really couldn't process," she tells me.

Cholesterol is produced from the fats we eat because the body can't absorb them in their natural state.

"The LDL is the unprocessed cholesterol. The liver will selectively try to utilise that LDL and decide what to do with it - whether to make HDL cholesterol or offload some of it into things like triglycerides," explains Collins.

When I started the diet, my fat intake jumped and my liver struggled to cope. "Something like a load of lorries trying to enter a supermarket loading bay," Collins says. "Your liver was being overwhelmed by the fact that it couldn't process it quickly enough to convert it into HDL or store it."

Sarah Brewer, a doctor and adviser to Atkins Nutritionals UK, says there is no scientific evidence that the Atkins diet has a significant negative effect on LDL cholesterol. "LDL can either go up, down or stay the same for the first two months," she says. "If it goes up, it tends to go down after two months. It's a short-term effect."

Jeremy Nicholson, a professor of biological chemistry who heads a world-leading metabolic research team at Imperial College London, says the results show the problems in prescribing one way of eating to a large and varied population. "Even if what Atkins says is true about improvements in cholesterol, for you, it went the opposite way to what is regarded as healthy," he told me.

This does not prove Atkins' assertion is wrong outright, but outlines the fact that individuals react differently. Nicholson says the Atkins diet can be seen as an intervention to a person's metabolism, like a drug. Just like a drug, some people react differently. "In any population you'll have extremes but, for most people, Atkins will probably accelerate heart disease and could negatively impact on other organ systems: we just don't know yet," says Nicholson. "A large selection of the US and UK populations is engaged in a potentially dangerous experiment, the outcome of which we may not know epidemiologically for at least 20 years."

Current calorific intake and nutrition advice is based on population statistics. Nicholson says we need to move to more individualised advice, as researchers are trying to do in pharmacology.

Understanding diet in the future will be a case of finding the genes responsible for negative traits (such as obesity) and working out how they interact with the stresses in our individual environments. Nicholson's lab at Imperial is spearheading the effort. Two decades ago, he devel oped a technique where he could assess a person's metabolic status - the combination of genes and environment provide a unique fingerprint for an individual. This fingerprint gives Nicholson the ability to model how any intervention to metabolism, such as a drug or diet, will affect that person.

The Atkins debate will rage for some time. The latest salvo was delivered in May with the publication of research from Duke University. During a six-month comparison study, people on a low-carb, high-protein diet lost more weight than people on a low-fat, low-cholesterol and low-calorie diet. Accompanying editorials sang the praises of low-carb routines and even nutrition luminaries such as Walter Willets, professor at Harvard medical school, said it was time to start taking Atkins-style diets more seriously.

There's a long road to go. There may be many papers published for and against low-carb diets but there will be no resolution any time soon. "Just because there are published papers doesn't mean something is correct. Everyone can make mistakes," says Nicholson. "The recent Harvard publication and the fact that Willets is well respected doesn't make him Yoda.

"You need a balance of opinions from eminent experts and a broad scientific consensus based on widely gathered evidence over many years. It took almost three decades from the first epidemiological studies on smoking before the now obvious health risks were widely accepted even by doctors."

My conclusion? The weight loss was great but I felt restricted by the compromises I had to make. I learned some good lessons: it is possible to eat healthy food without too much effort and vegetables are not the enemy. But, according to the data, for the past three months I have put my health at risk by eating the Atkins way.

Watching England play in Euro 2004 last week, I sat down to my first pint of beer in more than 12 weeks. A friend brought over some crisps and, hesitantly at first, I began munching the indulgent, carb-rich junk food once again. It might have been the wrong food to celebrate the end of a long experiment - too unassuming and simple, perhaps. But it tasted great.


· Alok Jha will discuss his Atkins experiment at the Food x-change: a debate on food and the food industry, at the Dana Centre, Queen's Gate, London SW7, on Tuesday June 29 at 6.30pm. The event is free, but prior booking is essential on 020 7019 4940

Further reading
· Read Alok Jha's diary, and discuss the experiment with him
· The psychology of eating: from healthy to disordered behaviour, by Jane Ogden. pub. Blackwell, Oxford, 2003. ISBN 0631233741
· Jeremy Nicholson's company, which specialises in metabonomics
· Atkins Nutritionals UK
· Details of the Food x-change event
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 07:15
rpavich's Avatar
rpavich rpavich is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 735
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 282/262/205 Male 6' 1
BF:waaay tooo much
Progress: 26%
Location: West Virginia
Default What diet did he say he was on?

I don't know about everyone else but this isn't the diet that I'm on! I eat a balanced diet of meats/fish, veggies, fruit, etc..He makes it sound like its torture! Like he's in prison!
He couldn't find something to eat at a mexican restaurant????

This is typical of the mainstream bias against something that works....this is why I don't even read reporting like this...it's so slanted that it's frustrating and funny at the same time...

Atkins WOE is about "real" food...who says that highly refined wonder bread and Kraft Cheesy freeze dried in a box macaroni and cheese and hitting the snack machine 4 times a day is something a body needs???

arrggg

bob
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 07:58
PacNW PacNW is offline
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Posts: 243
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 245/195/170 Male 5 10
BF:
Progress: 67%
Default

I thought the opening run-in with tortilla chips was pretty realistic. I, too, have been to Mexican restaurants where there was nothing to eat that was not smeared with some goopy, sugared sauce.

The description of the writer's LDL increasing 6 weeks into this WOE is goofy. DANDR cautions that you will likely see bad effects early on in the WOE. There is an entire message board here on Cholesterol/CHD with post-after-post that appears to confirm that LDL increases slightly and HDL increase dramatically for many people.

The only other thing that I quibbled with was the statement "The death of Atkins at 18 stone last April hasn't stemmed the flow." The writer lets that hang without explaining that Dr. Atkins was then in a coma and that his weight was fine when he entered the hospital.

But the description of the effect of insulin is very tightly written and excellent.

The quote from Nicholson "we just don't know" was funny.

The writer's conclusion was not the one I came to. It underscores perhaps that no journalist has the mental brainpower to stay focused on something long enough to sort out the conflicting claim or longer than necessary to meet the deadline.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 08:22
whyspers's Avatar
whyspers whyspers is offline
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Posts: 1,306
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 259/223/148 Female 5'7
BF:No clue
Progress: 32%
Location: Kentucky
Default

He does in another article that is linked:

"I avoided exercising throughout the experiment not only because I'm lazy but so that the end results would be unaffected. Even so, I started at 87.9kg and, 10 weeks later, weighed 80.8kg. My body fat went from 27% to 24.8%. "

So someone who knows kgs can correct me, but it looks like he lost 20+ lbs. in three months.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 08:45
EvelynS EvelynS is offline
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Posts: 118
 
Plan: high fat low carb
Stats: 215/152/150 Female 5ft 5in
BF:
Progress: 97%
Location: england
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PacNW

Alok Jha

Six weeks into the experiment for me saw the opposite effect to what Atkins predicted - my ratio of LDL shot up compared to my HDL cholesterol. My risk of heart disease had increased.



I'm guessing Alok Jha is of South Asian extraction. If so, he perhaps seems an odd choice for this experiment as British South Asian men have a heart disease mortality rate about 40% higher than the whole population (women=51% higher). One of the risk factors more common in this group is low HDL cholesterol, which might partly account for his LDL shooting up compared to HDL. We are not given the actual levels.

It's impossible his experimenters didn't know this. Perhaps they wanted a more "extreme" case for their experiment, but it seems unfair not to mention it.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 08:48
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Hellistile Hellistile is offline
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Posts: 2,540
 
Plan: Animal-based/IF
Stats: 252/215.6/130 Female 5'4
BF:
Progress: 30%
Location: Vancouver Island
Default

Also, doesn't Dr. Atkins himself state that sometimes there is an initial increase in cholesterol at the beginning before it begins to go down. I don't think this reporter's experiment lasted long enough. He should now do a low-fat experiment for only 3 months and see how well he fares.
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 09:14
StacieC StacieC is offline
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Posts: 80
 
Plan: Atkins Induction - 5/5
Stats: 253.5/204/166 Female 62
BF:46%/39%/25%
Progress: 57%
Location: Northeast TN
Default stories like this make me mad ...

... because they are trying to cram what works for some into something that will be or won't be good for everyone. These people need to stop and consider that we are not all made the same - and for me - since switching to this woe three months ago, my life has changed drastically and for the better! In three months, I have lost 42.5 pounds - something I was never able to acheive on a low fat diet. I feel better, more energetic, and my mood is happier.

If the critics of Atkins would just take a minute and look around and see that we're not all built the same, they might realize that different bodies need different types of fuel - my sister in law is 6 foot 2, about 130 pounds and eats like a horse, all day, every day - anything she can put into her mouth, and never gains a pound. I am 5 ft 2, I now weigh 211, and if I even smell food, I gain a pound. Atkins works for me - she would probably struggle with it.

Just my 2 cents - my baby is crying, gonna go take a nap

Stacie
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 09:17
JL53563's Avatar
JL53563 JL53563 is offline
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Posts: 1,209
 
Plan: The Real Human Diet
Stats: 225/165/180 Male 5'8"
BF:?/?/8.6%
Progress: 133%
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Default

"My conclusion? The weight loss was great but I felt restricted by the compromises I had to make."

Will somebody please tell me which diet it is that works without restricting which types of food you can eat??? This is one criticism you always here, and it drives me crazy!!
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 11:16
gotbeer's Avatar
gotbeer gotbeer is offline
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Posts: 2,889
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 280/203/200 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 96%
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Default

87.9kg minus 80.8 kg is 7.1 kg

7.1 kg x 2.2lbs/kg = 15.62 lbs lost.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 12:43
Finestof07's Avatar
Finestof07 Finestof07 is offline
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Posts: 342
 
Plan: Atkins,SB,GI now!
Stats: 217/206/150 Female 5'4''
BF:i/cant/count
Progress: 16%
Location: Bowie, MD
Default

He might be fat-sensitive. Dr. Atkins did mention that after two weeks, you should evaluate yourself( i dunno that HDL LDL Blood Pressure something) and see if they are better than before you started the diet. And if they are not, then Atkins is not the plan for you. And just because Atkins worked for millions of people does NOT mean it's going to work for him.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 14:10
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,886
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

There's a big difference between someone going on a diet to lose pounds, fully anticipating that they'll end the diet someday, and someone who has adopted as a way of eating.

Sure, if you're going to be on it for 3 months then you're probably not going to be intellectually curious about how you can make the diet tasty and find things to replace the stuff you miss.

If you're going to be on it for life, then you find a way to fit it into your life and enjoy it.
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 18:34
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brobin brobin is offline
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Posts: 470
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 231/172/175 Male 70 inches
BF:30%/19%/17%
Progress: 105%
Location: Ontario
Default

Atkins might make my penis larger, but we just don't know without long term studies...

brobin
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-04, 21:13
PacNW PacNW is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 243
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 245/195/170 Male 5 10
BF:
Progress: 67%
Default

Atkins might make my penis larger, but we just don't know without long term studies...

I can confirm that Atkins has made my unit large.
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