>>I'm talking about low carb eating and how for years there was no evidence to back it up

Studies on low carb diets date back to pre-1960s. Pennington, 1953; Kekwick et al. 1956, and 1957...in fact, the low-carb diet appeared as a bodybuilding definition diet in the late 50's and 60's, and dropping carbs out of the diet before a contest has been standard practice pretty much since then.

>>2nd, your assuming I have never lifted

My comments about lifters were not directed at you in particular but at the forum population in general. I would not characterize the average forum member as a hardcore weightlifter - and I think most would agree with me. My simple point is that if you look at the history of sports supplements, what started out as a small range of products marketed to athletes and weightlifters has become a multimillion dollar industry directed at everyone - sedentary people included. In many cases, it would be worthwhile for "non-lifters" to heed the words of advice on supplementation from experienced weightlifters -- as I said, they're typically the first group a supplement is marketed to, and have real-world experience wading through the hype and ad claims.

But, since you used to be a lifter, let me ask you: remember in the 1980's when arginine and ornithine were hyped as growth hormone releasers? Of course, the supplement companies didn't mention that the only studies demonstrating that these amino acids elevated growth hormone levels were intravenous injections in the decagram range!! Maybe you remember GHB (banned by the FDA in 1990), and its cousin GABA? We don't have to get into GHB, moot since it's illegal, but what about GABA? Your thoughts?

>>3rd, you assumed I saw the advertisement first then bought the supplements, wrong, I read about hgh first

I didn't assume that you saw ISS Research's ad first; however, I do admit to assuming that you saw someone's ad to make this decision. I apologize. In what impartial news media or scientific journal did you read about the wonderful effects of commercially available growth hormone "releasers"?

>>everything you are saying is not based on any personal experience

Have you seen how many supplements are out there these days?? What, do I have to use every single one before I can comment? Get real.

>>it doesn't sound like you know anyone who has used the product

Would you feel better if I conducted a poll at the gym?

>>your whole view is based on something you have read.

Not my whole view. A majority of my view is based on clinical studies and research, yes. As it should be, as opposed to "personal experience". The second is common sense. Growth hormone has a valid medical use as treatment for pituitary disorders and a few other conditions (anti-aging/life extension is not necessarily viewed -at least by the government- as a valid medical use). Several pharmaceutical companies have pursued research in growth hormone secretagogues - hexapeptides, or chemically bonded amino acids. (At least one supplement manufacturer actually includes "secretagogue" in the product name - despite containing none...) The research so far has ultimately been disappointing; although increases in GH levels are seen in the first week, the effect drops off 40% in the second week, and tapers off another 10% or so for the next six weeks. So what you say? I only got a 30-day supply anyway? Well, this is a *pharmaceutical compound*, a chemically bonded hexapeptide! Not that little mix of aminos and GABA you're taking!! (Clearly total aminos are only in the mg range!) Must be that "secret ingredient", that "Aminotrope" or "Compound K", right? The one that the big pharmaceuticals couldn't discover, but a dinky supplement company could? (Advice for the non-lifters: Might want to consider asking a weightlifter about his opinion of supplement companies, too.)

Like I said, it's your money. There's always the placebo effect...