The Antioxidant Myth
Bummer.
Interesting article by Dr Georgia Ede in Psychology Today. Net down: Antioxident supplements or foods pretty much worthless. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...tioxidant-myth? Companion piece on Cooling Brain Inflammation Naturally with Food https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...naturally-food? |
Why a bummer? I like information that debunks what industry is selling us so I can save my money. If our bodies can function optimally on our excellent LCHF diet then more power to us!
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JMO, I think the bummer uttered by Janet is that a lot of people think Antioxidant = helps us fight cancer and other diseases...
Edited to add: at least that's what "they" want us to believe... Slap me down, Janet, if Imma wrong, b/c I'd never wanna put words in your mouth... |
I think the "bummer" is that so many are drawn in by the marketing of these products where people are spending lots of money for things that are actually damaging to one's health. Interesting comment on one of these antioxidant products:
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This is why I stick with single ingredient whole foods and try to maximize their nutrient density. Marty Kendall is a good source for this information. I do take supplements but not in lieu of maximizing the quality of my diet. I consider my diet to be the foundation of my health and the supplements to be an added insurance policy. The value of the food I am sure of. The value of the supplements less so although vitamin D and magnesium do seem to be essential for me and probably fish oil for the omega 3's. I don't believe in magic pills or quick fixes
Jean |
I agree that real foods with real nutrients are the only way to go.
I just don't understand how people could think that what's in a pill is equal to nutrients in food or in lieu of food with real nutrients. I too eat single ingredients foods like one meat and one veggie...and butter of course :lol: I've never gotten into those complicated fake baked LC recipes. Her article made so much sense about removing certain bad things from our diet rather than always looking for a miracle cure. |
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An interesting transition on the perception of what is healthy seems to have been made in the 20th and 21st centuries where we are now favoring pills over real food. Why? I believe that with the advent and advances in pharmaceuticals where some pills have saved or prolonged lives, we are now prone to view pills, liquids, or other substances that are not whole foods as keys to health. This includes supplements, as we no longer understand the critical health contributions of a diet of whole, unprocessed foods. We're looking for the easy button in pills and other supplements. The marketing of these products is simply reinforcing this perception. |
I was diagnosed with asthma 8 months ago. I looked into studies of what might help, although antioxidants are pushed I couldn't find a study that showed that they helped.
My inhaler has steroids in it when I got my first cold I used the zinc tabs that usually keep it from being more than fatigue and nothing worked. It took 2 weeks to get over and I was very sick the first week. The doctor prescribed more steriods which didn't work. 2nd cold hits, I drank green tea with antioxidants. It knocked the cold right out. The Kumeyaay Indian tribe settled in my area at least 6,000 years ago. There are informational signs, where a cave painting was found, explaining how these Indians used various plants in the area to make teas for illness. Some of those plants are in my tea. I'm only 1 person with 1 success but I was amazed and happy with the results. |
Jo... totally correct explanation of my bummer. ;) As a cancer survivor I do take antioxidants mainly in the form of extra vitamins, Vit C, etc. I occasionally try others...in fact just finished a bottle of turmeric hoping it would help knee pain (didn’t, she,s right...don’t bother with that one :) ) There are some cancer nutritionists who promote a long list of antioxidant foods and supplements.
My DH's optometrist suggested us old folks take Lutein & Zeaxanthin for eye health. Even though the brand bottle raves about it’s bioavailability ... that too might be an expensive Nothing. |
Hmmm... seems to me the article is debunking certain over-hyped sources of antioxidants more than antioxidants themselves.
For months now I have been battling a stress-induced hives breakout (lots of areas from the collarbones down, tips of ears, even a spot on my lip!) which turned into stress eczema and made my life miserable. My doctor tried steroid creams, oral steroids, serious moisturizers, antihistamines of various kinds... nothing worked to make them actually go away. Until I started taking a Quercetin-Bromelain Complex. Quercetin is a super antioxidant. And now, at last, the maddening itching is fading and the skin is healing. So I can't be against antioxidants :) |
But how do you know the effect isn't from the bromelain? There are studies looking at antiinflammatory effects of bromelain.
If you look at something like lipoic acid--sure it's an antioxidant, but it also serves a vitamin-like function--if we couldn't make our own, there would likely be a dietary requirement. Same with CoQ10. Vitamin c and beta carotene--functions in the body that go beyond just reducing oxidative stress. A lot of the time the benefit from these antioxidants is enzyme mediated, it's not just about reduction vs. oxidation, controlled reduction and oxidation is crucial. So if quercetin helps you, there's still the question of why, what metabolic pathways specifically might it interact with. I do think there's a problem with lumping in antioxidants as a class, sort of like the problem with the whole acid/alkaline diet thing. Sure we need some alkaline nutrients. But it makes more sense to look at our need for potassium, sodium, magnesium, calcium etc. as individual nutrients rather than as a class of nutrients. A lot of the phytonutrient studies in rodents that show promise use crazy high doses. The amount of wine you'd have to drink to match the resveratrol given to mice is beyond human capacity, Blueberry studies use the peel or leaf extracts, allowing for doses far beyond what you can get eating blueberries. Studies show pharmacological effects at pharmacological doses, then people use these as evidence that they should wash down blueberries with red wine, when the effectiveness depends on homeopathic doses of the relevant metabolites. I read an article the other day on Flex magazine suggesting mustard, because rodents fed mustard steroids became more muscular. I found another article looking at levels of this steroid in plants and the amounts fed to rodents. The levels in plants was expressed in micrograms per kilogram plant matter, the doses for the animals was given as milligrams per kilogram of rodent. |
Supplements are tricky. I have a high acid stomach and very alkaline body. Taking any supplement with "acid" in the title gives me horrible stomach pain. My cure for GERD (in the old days when I had it) was fresh apple.
When I took probiotics, I had disturbing bowel distress for a long time after stopping. Guess what I'm saying is that every body's needs are determined by its present state. |
I would be fubared without antioxidants. I came up with a cocktail of several different antioxidant supplements that I take if I get a flare-up of my rheumatoid arthritis. It works better than anything my doc wanted me to take.
I saw the Georgia ede article the other day and when I was researching Jo Robinson's book about how to choose foods based on highest phytonutrient/antioxidant values I saw other articles that said the same thing. From personal experience I am going to keep choosing to take extra antioxidants and will grow food in my garden with the highest orac score I can find.... |
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Dr Wahls protocol is based on the same kind of principals. She found supplements helpful. They slowed down her decline from MS but real progress was made when she added lots of different vegetables providing an array of micro-nutrients. Jean |
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I don't, of course :) Though I did take Betaine HCL because I had trouble with digestion. Might not be similar, though. Quote:
That makes sense to me because how can we add in what we don't know is missing? |
Going down a bit of a niacinamide rabbit hole this morning, I came across this.
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There have been a number of studies looking at antioxidants and exercise, looks like Ristow was involved in that some. Study by another group; http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/142.full Quote:
The problem here might be that vitamin c is doing its job. Maybe stress can be good, unless what you're trying to do is trigger a positive adaptation to that stress. No stress, no reason to adapt. That doesn't necessarily mean that there can't be some benefit if there is some sort of pathological state of excess oxidation as opposed to an environmental stressor that can be adapted to. There are also studies looking at cold baths etc. to decrease inflammation after working out. They work, less inflammation. But they seem to impair muscle growth. Again, reduce the stress, reduce the adaptation to the stress. A study I was looking at in my journal some months back mentioned something about anti-inflammatories like aspirin or tylenol. Young, healthy people working out were given anti-inflammatories--they seemed to interfere with muscle growth. Older, insulin resistant people working out, given anti-inflammatories had instead an increase in lean mass. There could be a sweet spot for some of this stuff, how you get there depending on where you started out. |
Cool stuff, teaser. Now, the querticin I have been taking IS polyphenols.
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I'm just talking "out-text" here. I am not on the level of information consumption or contemplation you folks seem to be, so this is opinion writing that follows.
This stuff is way over my head, and I suspect its over the heads of many, including those that write articles on "stuff". At what point do we stop pinballing from study to study? How controlled do we really know the subjects of the study are? I'm referring to the humans of course...rats and worms are even more dubious to me as in relation to humans. I'm not saying all studies are wrong, but with so much information, often contradictory, how does the average non scientist or doctor really know the answer in the end? I do believe a doctor who has been practicing 30 years and has told patients to do or take "X" and see's THOSE patients over that 30 years and sees real world results. What we actually see in media and medical publications...is what has reached our eyes. We have a medical community that is insistent that serum cholesterol is what causes plaque and heart disease, yet other studies, one massive one in Europe contradicts that "known fact" that has Americans taking poison statins for instance (I mention this a lot because I'm one of those people that, thankfully, cant tolerate statins, so I dont take them). While a lot of doctors talk down supplements, in the case of statins they admit these drugs strip us of natural CoQ10 and recommend a supplement! Supplements that other "experts" tell us are not nearly absorbing as well as we need and not nearly as cardiac protective as the coQ10 our bodies naturally produce...the CoQ10 we are intentionally stripping from us with drugs supposedly to protect our heart! It seems nonsensical on its face to me...but maybe I'm just weird and skeptical. But why does my skepticism seem less with supplements? I think its because I have at least as much trust in homeopathic stuff that is not driven by corporations as much. I dont take supplements because the supplement manufacturer has ads on TV or elsewhere...the more a supplement is pushed in media or by anyone making money on it (ever hear of Monavie? A pyramid scheme, yet the stuff probably has some good things in it...that I will NOT pay that kind of money for), the less apt I am to buy it. Every supplement I take is based more on either doctors advice, who doesn't make money on the supplements like they might pushing a scrip; and my own research reading what nutritionists, herbal health folks, and end users who report at least psychosomatic results, which the placebo effect is proven to actually work in some cases! The power of the mind...it cant be measured in a blood test all the time. Positivity itself is a healing power. One of those linked articles refers to pomegranate. Yea, hard to believe the stuff is bad for you...and a pomegranate is not bad for most people...yet POM juice, loaded with sugar, we all know here...its the sugar that's bad! I love pomegranate juice, but I refuse to be fleeced by the price of the stuff and now that I'm paying attention to sugar, I'm clear on this. Plus I'd rather have natural sour cherry juice if given a choice. Green tea. Asians. I believe them. So I drink it, especially around flu season...but I also get the flu shot. We also have local herbal hippies and natural farms and communes nearby we buy the natural stuff from....including vegetable seeds specifically bred for our region. They sell wonderful tea blends for wellness that cant hurt. I wont delve in to all the herbals...there are so many. Again, I have as much trust in herbals as I do big pharma. Turmeric. Again, an Asian thing. The case study is part of a continent. But I'm not paying through the nose for the stuff to take capsules. I buy it in bulk from a spice retailer, it lasts forever. I use it in the winter when I'm drinking cups of broth or bouillon...that I add capsicum sauce to...because I believe capsicum is really good for you. I add turmeric and hot sauce to my drinking broth, and try to have that after my two cups of coffee and cup of green tea every day (now that I work from home most of the time, this is easier to do). My biggest skepticism with supplements is there is no way, short of hiring the local university to analyze them, to know if what they claim is in the supplement is true. Kind of like we "trust" that nutrition label on foods. But who is verifying these? Each batch? I take both Niacin and 1000mg of vitamin C every day. Both suggested by doctors who rarely seem to promote supplements. Many doctors will tell you if you are eating a balanced diet, you dont need supplements, including omega 3's. But other doctor's who see me say either the supplements I take Which include much more than those two, are either "good stuff" or simply, "not going to hurt". What I dont do, is assume that the expensive supplements are the best or most pure. Just because you bought them in a store with employees that seem to be in that "world" and the products they sell are outrageously expensive, is no guarantee of purity or quality. Gilded packaging does not make the supplement better. Many in here are far more well read on this stuff, cancer survivors...and suffer many more ailments than I ever have...you all actually make me feel so fortunate. As I write in my booze thread, it seems unfair that I have drank all my life and smoked much of it...still do smoke here and there if the weather is nice outside...I've done many illicit drugs in my youth...enough that one might wonder why I'm alive today. I worked hard and partied/drank-smoked hard for decades...and so many people out there have so many ailments and never did any of that. My blood numbers are fairly decent, I've had x-rays, MRI, CT scans and C-protein tests, etc....and no matter how much I worry I have that "tumor" from all my unhealthy behavior, the medical field keeps telling me I'm fine and should cut back on the drinking and just lose some weight!...and take a poison statin because the cholesterol levels that were good 15 years ago are no longer good enough. What's next...the LDL needs to be in negative numbers? How much pharmaceuticals will it take? Yea, not this guy, but I will take plant sterols and red yeast rice! Go figure. |
Meetow I'm on the same page with you, I eat because I like food. I'm a chemist and I'm not interested in microanalysis. I'm down with lowering the carbs = weight loss + health.
This board attracts a lof of really brainy people who are really nice as well. I think if you lowcarb for a long time you start to dig deeper into what's going on. If I ever have any problem, I'm super confident someone on this board will know the answer. A lot of drs have joined the lowcarb diet bandwagon, the diet industry is lucrative. |
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Just a caution: those are "natural" forms of statin, so you still need to be careful. My attitude (which also coincides with my own health challenges) is that inflammation is THE problem. If I eat and live in a way that reduces inflammation, all else follows. Forcing a health metric into a different number is not really solving the underlying problem; it's just tinkering with a health metric! |
I don't trust homeopathy, partly due to the fact that the homeopathic substance is watered down to the point where the probability that any one "dose" will actually contain the substance itself is very low.
I also don't trust the idea that placebo works due to some mind over matter deal. When the measure is subjective, as in depression, it's possible that thinking that you're on a medication will cause you to answer a depression quiz differently, without actual general improvements in mood. Maybe it's comparable to an observation with porsches one psychologist made--having a porsche makes people happier when they're thinking about how happy the porsche makes them, rather than the rest of the time. Placebo's purpose is to provide blinding for the intervention. But where is the blinding for placebo itself? One study looked at giving people placebo, but telling them that it was placebo. The placebo still worked--but the subjects were told that placebos have a powerful mind-body effect, going in. |
Where are the studies ......I expect a litney of studies listed to support an article. There were none.
Seemed more like an opinion peice. (referring to first article listed.) Green tea I find effective. I know when I miss my daily tea. |
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It occurs to me that the 1 gram of Vit C was a dose much higher than most people get a day. Perhaps if the study was repeated at 500mg the results might be different. Was the 1g level picked because this is a dose commonly used by athletes? ( all rhetorical questions.) |
You're right, there might be some goldilock dose. Oxidant stress triggering favourable adaptations does make sense, but "the more the better" isn't necessarily true.
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I do wish more reseatch $$ was spent. I hear NIH will be gutted....hope it doesnt happen.
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I am reminded of how there was a big push for Vitamin A because of studies that indicated this might be why "vegetables were good for us." But it turned out, just taking A supplements had a detrimental effect.
This drive to isolate things so a company can turn them into drugs is the problem. Our body doesn't work in isolation; neither can our solutions. |
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80419141523.htm
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This article came with a picture of broccoli. Might as well have been a supernova, for all it had to do with the story. Maybe more of a drug than a nutrient. Makes a point, though, just being classed as an antioxidant doesn't really tell what's going to happen after something's consumed. It would be interesting to see if this stuff has some of the other antioxidant effects, like preventing adaptation to exercise (at least in young, non-insulin resistant types), etc. |
Once again, I see them forcing the body to do something in an un-natural way when it is better to give the body what it needs to do this in a more functional way.
Like giving insulin to diabetics; truly life-saving for Type I, who cannot make it themselves; disastrous in Type II, where it increases insulin resistance, worsens the metabolic disorder, and creates the nightmare we see around us today. |
Thanks very much for posting about antioxidants having adverse effects.
I found this study with MitoQ: https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley....4814/phy2.13667 The targeted anti-oxidant MitoQ causes mitochondrial swelling and depolarization in kidney tissue. Gottwald EM1, Duss M2, Bugarski M1, Haenni D1,3, Schuh CD1, Landau EM2, Hall AM1,4. Here is the last sentence of the summary in the abstract: In summary, MitoQ causes mitochondrial swelling and depolarization in PT cells by a mechanism unrelated to anti-oxidant activity, most likely because of increased IMM permeability due to insertion of the alkyl chain. ---- I tried astaxanthin, and also zeaxanthin, each, for about two years, hoping it would improve eyesight. I noticed no change whatsoever. I used good brands, such as Dr's. Best. |
Interesting. Also interesting the bits speculating about a possibility some of the effects that are assumed to be beneficial in other studies might be as much a result of increased mitochondrial permeability as to an antioxidant effect. Earlier today, can't find it right now, I saw mention somewhere else of MitoQ also having this effect of the lipid bilayer of lysosomes, also increasing permeability, raising questions of where else they might be having some unexpected effects.
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