In the eyes of others

[Andy Davies]

I recently read an account by Sticki of going to a MacDonald's and asking to have a burger without a bun, and a glass of water. The reaction of the waitress who served her made me laugh, and started me thinking about how we are perceived by others, outsiders to this way of eating, who think we are all eccentric at the very least.

Russ tells about two sisters, one thin and one overweight. The thin one, who had no sympathy for her overweight sister, was sent out made up to look fat herself, and came back in tears.

My own contribution relates to a time when I went for a job interview as an Accountant. I had been unable to get my suit or even my sports jacket on because of increasing weight, and would not be able to afford a new jacket unless I secured the job. The interviewer was affronted when I turned up just wearing a jumper, and was totally unsympathetic when I explained that I had outgrown my suit and jacket, and could not afford a replacement without his job. He visibly shuddered, muttered about not giving a job to "that sort of person", and ushered me out. It wasn't just the lack of acceptable clothing that he objected to - he actually found my weight, and its tendency to increase uncontrollably - horrifying. This was before I started low-carbing, of course.

Anyone else with an experience of any sort to share is invited to contribute here. Any real-life story involving how the outside world perceive and react to us is welcome.

Andy

[alto]

That's an interesting story, I think (and a sad one, of course), and I'm sure that we all have something of the same thing. I've gotten to the point where I'm surprised when people don't recoil and treat me normally -- which I have to say happens more than the opposite. When I'm introduced to someone I've only talked with on the phone. I expect at least a wince, if not something more pronounced. I very rarely get it. Yet about 70 pounds ago, when I thought I looked at least halfway decent, I can remember many comments -- all from strangers, hairdressers, salespeople, etc. -- that I found quite hurtful.

It's a good question. I hope there are more answers :)

[Blondie28]

I think the one thing most girls on here can relate to is this one sentence

" She is such a beautiful girl..... BUT "

insert your most heard phrase here ____________________


" If only she were thinner " I think is mine and probably most others on here.

I am sort of struggling with this right now anyways, because I think to myself, Why did I start this diet?? Did I do it because I was tired of hearing that remark?? Because I wasn't getting any compliments with my increasing waist line?? Because society deemed me overweight? Or because I just had enough of it all?
Am I giving in by loosing weight? Giving in to what then? Public pressure to look a certain way.. or just because I didnt feel good about myself anymore..

I would like to say it was only because I didnt feel good about myself anymore, but hindsight I believe all of the above were factors if not motivation to do so.

People can be cruel and most overweight people can tell you, that yes they are discriminating as well.

As I get down to my goal weight I sometimes think about people who have made comments like the above and I feel sorry for them.

Because like my favorite bumper sticker says " I may be fat, but your ugly, and I can always loose weight "

Hahahaha!

:wave:
Shannon

[LC Sponge]

Hey Andy - good thread.

At the height of my *"fatonistic" period* I was employed as a trainer of front line customer service reps in an office with remarkably high turnover rates.

As I sat at one of the 10 front-counter workstations with newbie after newbie, going through the ins and outs of our computer system, I can't count the number of customers who asked me if I was training my replacement for my maternity leave. My customary response "No, I'm just fat."

This, in front of every new employee I trained.

And if the "she-must-be-with-child-mistake" isn't a major misery of being an apple-shape weight gainer, I don't know what is.

[Lessara]

Growing up I was told "If you were thinner you could be a model"
When I lost to my goal weight in the 80s I was approached to by Playboy to do a photoshoot! Jikes! I weighed 135.. and not for long after that! I had so many friends that ditched me when my weight when up to 200. I still have friends who say "Man when you were thin you were hot!" Great.. just great. :rolleyes:

On a positive note: My children think I'm strong and beautiful. When their friends say how fat I am, they think their friends are wrong. I love rose tinted glasses don't you? ;)

The hardest thing is listening to people you trust after hearing bad things about yourself all your life. "If only you were thinner..."
I'm told I'm pretty and that my body is beautiful. Do I listen? Oh I'm trying, honest I am!

[wangeci]

I was told by a male individual, for lack of better terms, one evening in the lodge that I go to sometimes, that I am
"good breeding stock",
I took this to mean my size, large frame was the type of women they were looking for to have babies with, not the cute little gals. He went on to insult my intelligence the rest of the evening, but, I thought everybody would get a chuckle out of this one.
Cindy

[alto]

I did get a chuckle -- and I hope you chucked him under the chin and told you yeah, and that's why you were picky :) (Good childbearing hips is another one I used to hear.)

I posted this on another thread, but I'll sneak it in here, too. I comfort myself with the thought that back when we were all eating mastadon (and liking it!), all of the tiny little things would have faded away during the first hard winter, and I would be Queen of the Cave :) (With apologies to Andy, who wasn't asking for retorts, but unpleasant experiences.)

It's interesting that in this tiny sample, we have one man being scorned for his weight on a job interview, and several women bearing the brunt of insults, either well-intentioned or not, but referencing our looks, not anything related to work. (I'm sure that overweight women also face job discrimination, but I wonder if an interviewer would speak to a woman as he did to at least one man? I'm also certain that overweight men are rejected by women in singles bars, none too pleasantly.) I guess I'm wondering, what is the male equivalent of "you've got such a pretty face?"

[Andy Davies]

Thanks to all who have participated so far. In order not to get too downcast, I have been and retrieved the original post from Sticki, which prompted me to start this thread (quoted below). Don't apologise Alto, our reactions to people's perceptions of us (and how we deal with them) are equally valid. Here's the post from Sticki:

I went into McDonald's and ordered a quarter pounder with no bun or ketchup - the boy nearly fell over and after steading himself ordered my food and took my money. OK so he did look at me as though I was from the planet gah gah, but hell I was the customer and I shall eat what I jolly well want - I was paying for it after all. He then took mild offense at me requesting some good old tap water to go with it instead of paying for their stuff in a plastic cup that has probably been sat there for a month or two. Anyway I received my food and drink walked over to a seat and sat there and ate it - in full view of the world. Two funny looks returned with a face from me that may not have killed but at least mauled people and no-one else bothered me. So it was not so bad an experience as I had first anticipated when entering the coven of doom .

[Sh'ra]

I was reading a study awhile back of an experiment to see if job interviewers discriminated against heavy people.

The experimenters would send two people, trained the same way to answer questions in a job interview, both having the same qualifications on their resume, and both wearing the same outfit (only one was larger). In 100% of the cases, the interviewer chose the slim person, even when the interviewer him or herself was overweight.

The experimenters did it again, only this time listed better qualifications for the overweight interviewee. In about 95% of the cases, the employer STILL chose the slender person.

---------------------

As for myself, I don't know how many times I've heard that line, "Well, you have such a pretty FACE," or the classic, "You'd be beautiful if you lost weight." What does that make me now, chopped liver?

I have been blessed, though, that my husband has never had an issue with my size, and has said he loves me at any size, and thinks I'm beautiful at any size (wish I could believe it myself :rolleyes: )

Sh'ra

[Sh'ra]

Oh, and when asked after the experiments why they consistently chose the slender person, nearly all the interviewers connotated fat with lazy. They thought the overweight person would be slower and lazier...again, even if they themselves were overweight and knew themselves to be hard workers!

Sh'ra

[LC Sponge]

To Sh'ra - first of all - your hubby sounds like a real catch. Secondly, I seriously question an interviewer who themselves, is a person of size and who still falls prey to the twisting thinking of *the thin* - not somebody I'd want to work for, regardless of the size of my pants.

Andy - 2 things - tell Sticki next time, to take the bun and fling it on the front lawn at McDonalds. 8 billion seagulls can't be wrong.
Secondly - You're welcome :)

So Lessara - DID YA???????

[Lessara]

I didn't do the photo shoot but I did pose for art classes oh and I was at 200 at the time, its wonderful to be told I look like a Greek statue! :D

[BaileyWS]

Well, let me add my 2 cents ...

When I interviewed for my current position, I called to ask how the decision making process was going. I was told that the committee was very impressed with me, but they had a couple of concerns. One had to do with being a woman in a man's field. The other had to do with "the impression I'd make." I know that was a euphemism for "we're worried about your weight." Luckily, they had some good counsel, and within a week I got the job offer.

At my last job, my boss took me aside one day and told me that he was concerned about my weight. And he had the nerve to tell me that I should lose weight before my marriage suffered! Talk about stepping over the limits!!!! My husband was livid when he found out. I figured that was harassment ... I wish I would have had the nerve to stand up to him. :(

[shelley]

I am really tired of being invisible.
I can't get service in stores, people let doors go in my face, make rude comments and give unsolicited advice. I have lost 100 pounds twice in my life and every time I gain the weight back I notice the same thing. I was in Peoples jewelers the other day with my friend. The clerks completely ignored me and stood there until a more worthy customer came in ,she was all over them.
I really like it when friends and family think it is ok to be "HELPFUL"
"do you really need that dear?" or "I'm only telling you this for you own good!"
I have lost friends over my weight. I had (keyword) a friend who somehow got the impression it was ok to be rude to me. Once she took away my dinner plate as we were eating supper and said "it makes me sick to watch you eat, how can you be happy with yourself? I wouldn't go in public if I looked like you." But the minute we defend ourselves we are labeled as Over Sensitive.
Ya, I guess I am overly sensitive to abuse. Oh ya, that was helpful not abuse, I forgot. I would really like to muster up the courage to tell some of these people what I really think but I would have to get their attention first. LOL :confused:

[Homegirl]

I wanted to say something here but I hope I don't offend anyone.

At my highest weight (147 lbs on a medium boned 5' 3" frame) not many people except my mum mentioned that I was overweight. In fact, even now, most people who have seen me shrinking said they didn't think I looked overweight at that particular point in time.

HOWEVER, the day I sat down in church and felt my stomach lodged firmly up under my breasts, I decided enough was enough. I didn't feel well--so sluggish and lethargic-- and I did not feel attractive at all.

I don't think my feelings of being unattractive came from others. They came from me because I knew that something in my body was out of balance and I knew that I was not in control. I had to find out the "keys" that would help me restore myself to myself, if you get my drift. I wanted to feel attractive and healthy to and for myself as well as to look attractive and healthy to others.

And isn't that the point? Overweight people are intelligent, good looking, funny--all the good and bad qualities that everyone else has BUT the bottom line is that being overweight is NOT as attractive as being someone who is toned and healthy (no matter what body shape, bone frame, height, etc.)

If there wasn't a smidgen of truth in this, then why, aside from health issues for some of us, are we all trying to lose weight??????

As I said, I hope I haven't offended anyone. Just wanted to give my thoughts.

[Karen]

If there wasn't a smidgen of truth in this, then why, aside from health issues for some of us are we all trying to lose weight??????

There are probably more than a few people who are trying to get rid of their "baggage" and the "baggage" takes the form of bodily fat. Some people are depressed all the time, some are angry, some are vain, some are co-dependant - these are all forms of "weight" - and some just want to lose a few pounds because their metabolism has changed.

Doing it to be more attractive outwardly is a losing battle. What happens when you don't feel attractive. What if your partner leaves you for someone more attractive. What if you wake up with a zit? What happens if your eyes start sagging after you turn 40 and you've always found it unattractive?

Karen

[MaryB]

I guess I'm wondering, what is the male equivalent of "you've got such a pretty face?"

How about:
"I think you're really nice but................."
"Thanks for the beer, BYE!...................."
"What did you say your friends name was again? He has SUCH a nice body!!!"
LOL!!!

I was at a college roommate's wedding, standing beside my other roommate and the bride's brother. He said to me"No offense to you but...." and then turned to her and said, " I just have to tell you that you are the most beautiful girl I've ever met!"

Why did he even say that to me? It would have been LESS rude to just SKIP THAT! and tell her she is beautiful.

I felt justified later that night when he realized that she is as psycho as she is pretty. He kept running away from her and trying to talk to me the rest of the night. LOL!! Maybe there is truth to beauty being skin deep....
No, I don't consider myself ugly. :roll:
Mary B

[alto]

Mary B -- your examples are great. And the "no offense to you" comment was awful -- alas, manners are no longer taught at either home or school, I fear :)

[MaryB]

Alto,

Amen! (and thanks for agreeing!!)

mb

[BaileyWS]

No offense, homegirl, but I still think that what we believe is attractive is very much based on societal norms. Attractiveness is not directly related to health. After all, some things women and men do for the sake of good looks can be dangerous to one's health -- body piercing, high heeled shoes, sun tanning and the like. There are cultures in which big really is beautiful. When I visited China last year, more than one man came up to me amazed that a woman could be that big, meaning that beautiful! I was embarrassed, but they thought they were complimenting me.

I am disgusted when people look down at me because of my size; when they assume I couldn't have a normal sex life; when they think I have a moral defect because I am fat. I've even been told that fat people shouldn't be pastors any more than alcoholics or pedophiles should be. They said that being overweight is a sign of moral and spiritual weakness.

No. I'm not fat because of any moral failing. I'm fat because of the genetic makeup of my physical self. I was fat since puberty - not because I was eating uncontrollably, but because my body has a different metabolism than, say, my husband who can eat anything and remain the same 147 pounds he's been since we were married 22 years ago.

I am not interested in losing weight to be "pretty;" I'm interested in being stronger and healthier. I want more energy to do the things in life I love to do.

When my daughter was about 5 or 6 years old she asked me if I thought she would be fat like me when she grew up. I told her to look at all the women and men in our family. Chances are she has inherited one of their body types. But what's important is not how you look, but how you take care of the body God gave you.

(She, btw, is 12 now, and is proud of my weight loss, but afraid she's going to lose the "pillowy" mom who is so comfortable for sleeping on and leaning against. Dad is too skinny and bony, she says.)

So, yes, I think it's good when the motivation comes from within, instead of from others wanting us to be something we're not.

[shelley]

I'm lucky to be married to a man who still chases me even after a 100# weight gain. Looking buff is not my ultimate goal, I want to be healthy and able to move easier. Being able to buy rack clothing is a bonus and nothing more. I don't know how old you are but I remember when beautiful was full figured like Marilyn Monroe, Jane Mansfield. Every year people get fatter and the ideal body gets smaller. Some of these models are sickening to look at. No offense taken by the way. :wave:

[Homegirl]

Yes. I get it. And I agree with you re baggage.

As for being outwardly attractive perhaps I should have said "feeling and looking the best that one can." I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and, therefore, is very subjective. I guess what I was trying to get at is that for me, I wanted to be the best me that I can be--as in not settling for something less than what I knew was possible. I didn't/don't want to sell myself short. For me, that goes for everything in my life. I am not a perfectionist by any stretch of the imagination but I always try to do and give my best whether it's in my service to other people, at church, at home with my kids, being a wife, at work (when I used to teach all those years ago), etc. When I feel good about myself--what I have achieved in my life, what I have contributed to others, how I look--there is a confidence and energy that is exuded that is attractive to others and that is what I meant

I also know that my best may be much better than someone else's best but at the same time it may not be as good as someone else's best. But that is life. The point is to always be and do the best I can with what I have and not worry about comparing myself with everyone else. We shouldn't be selling ourselves short.

[tamarian]

Originally posted by BaileyWS
No offense, homegirl, but I still think that what we believe is attractive is very much based on societal norms.

Hi Wendy,

I agree. When ever I hear this, I always recall this picture from the last century posted last year by Doreen. It's a total reversal of social norms!

Check it out:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58

Wa'il

[Homegirl]

I too feel good that my hubby still chases me around and thinks I am the best thing since sliced bread (heaven forbid on a locarb site). His body hasn't changed much since we first met except to reach his full growth as a man (we were only 19 and 20 when we met). He has seen my body change so much over the years with four pregnancies and weight gain but he has never once said or even hinted that any of those changes was distasteful to him.

On the contrary, he has expressed more than once his admiration and respect at the power of women's bodies and the changes they go through.

Since losing all this weight and almost being back to what I used to be when we first met and before I had children, he has never said you look better now. He is very happy for me because he knows I am happier with myself.

[BaileyWS]

Originally posted by tamarian

When ever I hear this, I always recall this picture from the last century posted last year by Doreen. It's a total reversal of social norms!

Wa'il ... that's great! Love it!

[alto]

Re changing social norms and the link to the 19th century ideal woman Wa'il posted -- THANK YOU! -- in the 19th century, dancers wore padded tights so that their legs would look plump. You could actually get tights fitted to your particular curves, and lack thereof. One star ballerina in the 18th century was so skinny that she was caricatured, ridiculed and called names, and one of my favorite reviews of a ballerina is a complaint that a foreign dancer was too thin, not "like our beautiful, arch and chubby ladies of the ballet." (That was about 1902.)

Not that skinny people should be caricatured either, of course, and there are probably lots of overweight people who are cruel, or say mean things to and about, other overweight people. But I think most of us -- if only out of self-interest -- wish that societal norms were different. (I hope we'll all remember it when we're the skinny guy running the interview -- but of course we will, won't we?)

[Homegirl]

Originally posted by BaileyWS
No offense, homegirl, but I still think that what we believe is attractive is very much based on societal norms.

Yes that is true, but that's why I said that I like toned and healthy looking bodies no matter what size bone frame they have or body shape (hour glass or long and lean or husky), or height. I am not thinking of what is pushed at us by the fashion industry.

Originally posted by Shelley
I don't know how old you are but I remember when beautiful was full figured like Marilyn Monroe, Jane Mansfield.

Hmmmm . . . seems to me that Marilyn, Jane M, and Jane R all had that Hour-glass figure. So again, we have an example of society choosing one body type over another as the quintessential form of beauty.

Why can't we have a Marilyn, a twiggy and a Sandra Bullock (an "everygirl" in my opinion) and count them all as beautiful because they reflect the "best" of their "body type?"

[shelley]

I think what bothers me to be honest is not the figure type or even the idea of a perfect figure. It is the obvious lack of respect persons show for one another. I must be a dinosaur or something, but it seems to me that society has forgotten the meaning of etiquette. My parents were, as I am as a parent, very strict about how we present ourselves to others.
I was taught that etiquette was not to appear polite but rather to never make someone uncomfortable with your behaviour. I am frankly shocked and unsure how to react in such situations.

[Homegirl]

Originally posted by Shelley
I think what bothers me to be honest is not the figure type or even the idea of a perfect figure. It is the obvious lack of respect persons show for one another. I must be a dinosaur or something, but it seems to me that society has forgotten the meaning of etiquette.

Have to agree with you on that one! Whatever happened to manners and the Golden Rule? I too am trying hard to instill that same kind of thoughtfulness and respect toward others in my boys. I really feel that I need to teach them, especially, how to treat women with respect and dignity and as their equals. I see and hear too often women bemoaning how they are treated by men and yet they raise their boys to be exactly the same way--by not giving them responsibilities, by not holding them accountable for their own decisions and choices, by allowing them to buy into the double standard!

But regardless, we all have to remember that all those "other" people out there who are not "us" have feelings, thoughts, aspirations and dreams just like we do, so we should treat them the way we want to be treated.

[Lessara]

I agree with the statement that is about etiquette. I can't believe how people will say to you like: "My aren't you a big girl!" or "If that was my child I would spank her!" or "How can you fit in that resturant booth?!" Its makes me so angry which upsets me. Why do we have to take this verbal nonsense?! :(
Its not just what we hear, its what we see. Movies, TV, magazines, Commercials, Newspapers, and the such.
People are so worried about fat, their weight, their age, so that no one really enjoys being who they are!
My 14 year old daughter told me something yesterday. She said "Mom, I am so different from other kids." She is 30lbs overweight, She's a genius, She loves to make up songs and stories, She's ADHD and OCD.. you know what? She IS different... Aren't we all? So I told her "Yes you are right and I am so glad you are you! My bright, creative, energetic girl!" and hugged her. She was feeling much better. I figure the best thing I can do is show my comfort with my body. I dance with my kids, I sing with my kids... I hope they teach others the same way. :p
Please! Can't we see the beauty that each of us have?? :daizy:

[KASSY]

I was always in shape and did not start gaining weight until I was 27 after my first child. I was always around 125-130. My husband and I went through some marital problems and I ate for comfort and stopped working out. I gained 70 lbs. Well its 10 years later and I am still hauling it around, thinking in my head for most of the 10 years that I did not look bad.
Over the past few years I keep hearing from family members (5 sisters!) oh you used to look so good when you were first married, you have such a pretty face, look what marriage has done to you, etc...
Well that only fuels the fire.
I also work for a real male chauvinist _ _ _ ! He makes comments all the time about my weight. Last year I asked him why I am not part of this trip that the managers take every year out west on business (mostly men) and he said- maybe next year if you drop 50 lbs. I was so hurt. I could have brought him up on a harassment suit. But , boy how much would that have helped me get ahead.
Anyway, I still work for this _ _ _ , and he still makes comments about me, and everyone else in the office (including names about his petite little wife at home) I have come to the conclusion that he has to live with his sorry self the rest of his life. I on the other hand will lose my extra baggage one pound at a time, and I will show him when I wear a size 6 suit by next fall !!!
We are how we see ourselves. I had lost my self esteem over the past 10 years because of comments people made. I no longer think that way. No person has the right to belittle another for any reason at all.

[Andy Davies]

Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this thread. When I first started it, I had a vague idea in my mind that it might draw half a dozen light-hearted anecdotes about people's experiences which have demonstrated how we are viewed "in the eyes of others" and that such stories would provide a little entertainment and light relief. Instead, it has led to quite an outpouring, and has obviously touched a raw nerve with many members. It has also developed unexpectedly into an examination of our own feelings and motives about weight loss, with some surprising results. Most shockingly of all, it has revealed some inexcusable human rights abuses which have been inflicted on our members (taking away someone's plate of food while they are eating, and telling them that to watch them eat food makes the perpetrator feel sick surely ranks as one of these) and a considerable amount of abuse, harrassment and offensive behaviour.

In spite of all these abuses, the members here are as nice a bunch of people as you could ever wish to meet anywhere. They will help you selflessly, give support when you need it, reassure, cajole and understand your needs. On the other hand, the perpetrators of these abuses we have heard about here are not fit to lick the boots of any of you, and I hope that if Kassy loses her weight and gets invited next year, she will tell her boss what to do with his offer!

I have one point to add about our motives for taking up this way of eating. When I first did this five years ago, I could have argued with myself about the true reasons for doing it, as some have done here. This time, I had no choice. I was told by a doctor that I had to lose weight. So I offer this crumb of comfort to anyone who has been unsettled by the debate about motives. Don't beat yourself up questioning or defending your motives for doing it. It is quite likely that if you did nothing, there would not be the luxury of a choice. A medical condition would sooner or later force the decision upon you whether you wanted it or not. Seen in this light, I think any member now worrying whether they have a secret agenda to please some third party by losing this weight, should reassure themselves that it is not eventually a question of choice, but a matter of medical necessity. I do hope that makes someone feel better.

Andy

[LC Sponge]

In order to never go back from where we came, we must remember periodically, what it was like to be there.

:)

[alto]

Andy, I think what you wrote about the medical necessity of this WOE was right on -- sobering, yes, but also very helpful. We talk so often about fitting into clothes and how we look -- and I don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with that -- that we forget, or perhaps don't want to remember, that the most important thing of all is to be healthy. All things considered, I'll bet you're very happy you listened to your doctor.

[goingfor60]

I was skating at the roller rink with my friends.

We went to the food counter and at that age it was cool to order a mini pizza and soda alone. So my friends ordered and received their food. I ordered the mini pepperoni pizza and a pepsi as my friends did. The cashier said to me "shouldnt that be a diet pepsi" I gasped and thought she didnt say that so I said huh? and she said oh nothing.

I'm now 31 and that story is as vivid as the day it happened.

Shannon

[alto]

Ouch! That would be bad enough to say to a grown up, but to a child? (I get that all the time, but I'm not 12, so I say, "No, not a diet Coke, a REAL Coke." Or did say.)

Isn't it true, though, how a chance comment, especially in childhood, can linger for years?

I remember once, taking ballroom dancing lessons when I was 14. I was on my Very First Diet, starting at about 160. I don't remember how much I'd lost, but I was in a size 14 which, in 1960s sizes, would be a size 10 today. I looked fine. We had to walk across the room, say something gracious to someone, and walk back and sit down. The instructor said, "She's too fast" and all the boys giggled. He turned to them and said, "I didn't say she's too fat. I said she's too fast." I was absolutely devastated and did the only sane thing -- went out afterwards and ate a hot fudge sundae.

[gecolon]

Hmmmmm.
I think you get both positive and negative attention regardless of your weight. When I was a child I was bigger than everyone else (at age 10 I was 5'6 125lbs)and very muscular. Everyone always called me fat this and that. Then as a young women I was 5'6 and I weighed 130. As a young women I was considered thin or as people always told me svelte. As a young women I attracted too much negative attention. Just because men saw me as beautiful they thought that gave them the right to say what ever they felt to me (cat calls, fresh comments, sexual harassment, stalkers).It takes a strong man to be with a beautiful women. Sad to say at that weight I had a wimp who told me that he didn't want a women that everyone else wanted. Women who felt intimated by the way I looked would grab the arm of their significant other if I was walking by, make snide remarks about my character (with out even knowing me or knowing of me.),didn't trust me, would start physical fights with me if I went to clubs etc.

Enter my fat yrs. In between the yrs I married a man who once told me it made him sick to watch me eat. Needless to say he got the boot. This time around when I was single (which lasted for about a month) I attracted different men (true breeding stock :) )(or maybe since I wasn't so perfect they didn't feel so intimidated), women were actually seeking me for friendships, and I married a wonderful man. I still wonder how he is going to act when I get down to my normal weight. He tries to feed me and has expressed some concern about how I will be when I'm thin :(
Now when I was thinner the job game was easier to play. If I wanted a job all I had to do was show up at the interview. I used to tell everybody that if I got the interview I knew I had the job. Now it is more difficult. I have to seriously work and prove that I can do the job. Kids say mean things to my kids, like your mom is fat, women don't take me as a serious threat (big mistake cuz one thing that I learned is that men DO like "healthy" women), I can't buy the clothes that I want because it doesn't come in my size or it wouldn't look right, my health was going down hill fast, but other than that I enjoyed being fat, because I don't miss the negative attention. Just another perspective.
For home girl, Any time some one starts off with hey no offense, but.... I take offense. That statement says I think you will probably take offense, but so what I'm going to say it anyway. I didn't find anything really offensive about what you said, but opening your statement like that puts one on guard. Just my most humble opinion. Peace :)

[Homegirl]

Thanks, I will keep that in mind next time! :)

[Andy Davies]

Wow! Just when I think we've seen all possible perspectives of this, along comes another - totally unexpected - one. Thanks gecolon (and of course everybody else). You are a person who could sing with conviction the song "Both Sides Now"!

Hi Alto, yes thanks, I do feel considerably better than I did before I lost 70 odd pounds. But I get reminded (and punished) when straying from the strict diet. My foot and ankle swell up, and I have to walk with quite a painful limp!

Andy

[maggi]

This thread made me so sad-and so ANGRY. I have been on the receiving end of all these put downs, I have been in stores thin, and broke, with the assistants falling over themselves to be helpful, and fat with money and ignored. I have had people say I was so beautiful before I put on all this weight, and you have such a pretty face, (shame about the rest....) I AM STILL THE SAME PERSON INSIDE. Does the packaging matter so much more than the product? Yes, I am trying to lose weight to conform to what society thinks is acceptable, but I wish I could be accepted for me.

[emcqueen]

:clap:

No offence taken by me!! I agree that people do treat others differently. I never understood that!!!!!!!!
For my 21st b'day I went to get a "party dress". The lady at the store enraged my mother with a simple wave of the hand and the instruction "the childrens dept. is downstairs" My mother was furious. At 30 I was told that a good wind would blow me away. I was rarely taken seriously. I did martial arts and although being highly ranked by grading I was always paired with 9-10yr. old boys. I hated being ssssoooo small. (I am 150cm=4'11"). Well, I am still the same height but now use up twice( if not more) the space I used to. Others are still concerned for my health but from the opposite side!!!!!!!! I have not ever been subject to some of the cruelties that our peers have......thankfully!! It breaks my heart that they have been treated this way. I cannot imagine the hurt but, knowing me I would probably have something to say that would be something like ...."I can lose weight ....YOU WILL ALWAYS BE IGNORANT OFFENSIVE AND STUPID!!!!!!!!!!
lIZ"

[alto]

I think the broader point that several people have made -- that we make comments on other people's lives and bodies and they hurt, sting, or anger -- is excellent. And it is part of a general breakdown in etiquette, in what is acceptable.

When I was growing up, I was taught that there was no excuse, ever, for making a personal remark or query -- never to a stranger or acquaintance. And to be very, very careful with even a friend. These are rules made up when married people addressed themselves, in private, as Mr. and Mrs., and obviously society has changed -- and in many, if not most, ways for the better.

In America, at least, we blame this on the TV talk shows. It's encouraged generations of people to bare their souls in public and, therefore, since that's what people see as they grow up, of course they'll go up to a total stranger and say, "You'll blow away in the wind" or "You're too fat to fit in anything in this department." (I don't dwell on these things, but I do remember once, in my relatively thin days -- 60 pounds ago -- going to buy a suit for my mother, who's a size 8. The saleswoman, in the nastiest tone imaginable, said, "And what size would Mama be?" obviously assuming that I was looking for (gasp, choke) something in a Size Huge.

The problem with impoliteness is that polite people have no defense for it, because the only options seem to be to shoot back a retort or to leave what has become a battleground.

This is another thing that can be changed -- very very slowly -- by personal example. One person in an office who refuses to join in the gossip pool can shut it down. I saw this recently with someone who had been the subject of very vicious gossip for more than 15 years. Someone would tell a story "I heard that X" and usually others in the group would pick up on it and share other stories. One day, one of his friends said, "Does that really sound like something he would do?" "No, it doesn't," said the first teller of tales. One person really can make a difference.

[jomil]

Andy! You are to be congratulated for starting this most interesting thread.

I have not been participating in the Forum recently because I have made my annual pilgrimage to Florida, and have been quite busy getting the residence in shape waiting for the wife to come down from the frozen north.

However I have been lurking in the background and reading various threads... particularly the Group Project.

When I stumbled on your thread, I was very moved to read about everybody's experiences. This thread will prove to be the most endearing one, and will grow very rapidly.

Your intelligence and humility continues astound me.

Keep up the good work, Andy.

Regards
Joe

[firespirit]

When I was younger, both my parents were really big. Neither one is very tall and my dad weighed about 370 and my mom hit a little over 400. In my family I was the smallest--always. Even my sister (1 year younger) was bigger than me. I was never small--or even average--I was "chunky"--just smaller than the rest of my family. For about 2 years my sister carried alot of her extra weight on her stomach. Poor girl was only 8 or 9--making me 10 or 11. And I was merciless--I would find her anytime and pat her tummy and say, "when is the baby due?"

It was behavior I'd already learned from people and the way I saw them treat my mom and dad--a sad truth.

I could tell many of my own stories here--stories where I was the one receiving the harsh looks and the comments. But the one that I will always remember is how I treated my sister. Of course I'm sorry now; and I'm not real guilt-ridden about it--I was too young to understand anyway. But it reminds me of how much society does affect our view and our comments. By the age of 10 I had already absorbed enough of that to participate. And I still remember why I had to say that to her everytime I saw her--it was because I already felt bad about my size and she was bigger.
And to remind myself of that made me feel better.

Now when people make comments--especially when they seem to be trying not to let me hear them I say things to them like, "Why are you whispering that to her? Do you thing I don't already know I'm fat?" and I laugh--because it doesn't hurt me as much as it once did--and then they are the ones to turn red and walk off embarrassed instead of me. ;) On rarer occasions my responses have spurned an apology and discussion with those who were making the comments. Often it comes out how dissatisfied they are with their own bodies, and then they say things like---"I admire your determination. Sometimes I think if I gain another 5 lbs I'll lock myself in my house and not come out." How tragic that the condition of one aspect of our lives (our bodies) can have that much negative effect on people.

[kezza]

Lot's of people say "Don't you look healthy!" if they have'nt seen me for a while and i know it is code for "Gee you have put on weight". I know this because the same people will say "Wow, you are looking good. You have lost weight!" if they see me and I have lost weight. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Only once did someone ask me when the baby was due! I think he was sooooo mortified when i told him I was overweight that he will never ask any woman that again without checking out the pregnancy test first!! :D :D :D

People do judge me initially on looks but I just bowl them over with my personality (not my weight!!) before they can lable me as fat and lazy. At my work I am one of the'movers and shakers' for positive change so if my fat 'moves and shakes' abit too so be it!!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
See ya,
Kezza
:wave:

[shelley]

Don't you hate it that you have to work twice as hard to get half the appreciation as your thin co-workers?

[sylvia]

pTo Blondie
I think that people don't make remark on your weight loss anymore because they are so completley jealous that you can lookso well and it is'nt a terrible hardship? .Inmy experience these are the ones constantly trying to work off the " FAT " that they have eaten and can't bring themselves to try adiet that can't just work !!! so you are certainly giving in by losing weight the thing to remember is these people will always find something wrong in what you have done and my "my God you look so tired pale thin etc etc " one colleague of mine actually took me aside one day and said that if I carry on the way I'm going that I'll have no friends because I was so miserable on my diet !!!! asyou know you were always so jolly and laughing she went on . Now you might ask what did I say to that .I'll tell you, give up the cigerettes try the diet yourself and last of all if you were my friend you would be delighted for me not telling me how people won't like me . onhearing all this another girl decided to try the diet - she lost the 12lbs she had being struggling to shed for weeks by walking the roads and eating a low fat diet -she lost it in 2 weeks needless to say.we are getting some where and people don't like seeing :thup: you doing something to help themselves because they might have to do something about thmselves .As I used to say when I was young and being teased about my weight "if all you can find to tease me about is my weight then you mustn,t have much to say for yourself ." don,t give up girl you do what makes YOU happy good luck p.s I read alot of betty shine she's a great help psychologicaly which is were alot of us need the the help when you start getting what you always wanted all of a sudden bestof luck sylvia ,Ireland co.cork

[Robibob]

Howdy,
All of us has been there,done that,and bought the tee-shirt.
I was being ornery the other day.My Mom I know means well.BUT
she is always saying,if you would lose weight you would feel better you would be happier,ect... Well she wanted something to drink so I stopped at a Texaco,These to very nice young men were in front of me. They both opened the doors,Well I popped off that I didn't belive I was not that wide that I needed both doors open.They were embarrassed,I was sorry as soon as the moment the words left my mouth.I then praised the fact that very few men opened doors for women and that they have just shown chivalry was not dead and Thanked them profusly.They seemed to be pleased with that.
What I'm trying to say is I was trying to make myself feel better after all the nonsense I had listen to from my mom.I'm more careful about the things I say since then.
Not all people or mean. There is always someone out there that is willing to make others suffer to make themselves feel better.This year with my son who has now turned ten hurt me with calling me fatty mom.I explained to him how bad that hurt and that I had not raised him to say things like that about people.As a ten year old he said but it is true you are fat.I told him I was disappointed in him,that there are something that people should not say because it would hurt peoples feelings.
It must have sunk in because,he made friends with a little boy who is overweight.The other kids was calling him names,Kevin took up for him.He didn't want to see his friend cry.Now Kevin is careful about what he says to other people.Because he has seen how hurtful it can be.I do belive it is the parents responsibility to teach their kids.
Sorry so long winded.Keep it up everyone you have been a wonderful inspiration to me.
Robi

[Andy Davies]

Thanks again to all for the input. There are some disclosures here that must have taken some greatness of character to share, and to these contributors I offer thanks for for their strength and honesty and generosity.

Joe, thanks for your remarks, but on this occasion the thread very quickly assumed a life of its own almost in spite of my intentions. It concerns me that some of this content here has been rather "heavy" (no pun intended) and to counteract any dampening effect this may have on members, I am planning a new thread which I intend to be uplifting. Should be able to launch it in a few days' time.

Many wise and true words have been contributed to this thread. I hope all those who reported abuse and rudeness no longer suffer it. There is an old saying that whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, so let's hope we have all gained strength from these trials. What I have found is that people who have suffered a bit in life are far more genuine, positive and generous people, and these qualities are exactly those displayed every day on this web-site by our members.

Andy

[curvy]

I have to admit, I've heard every insult on this thread, all directed at me......I don't care though......let's face it--no one is perfect. If you feel good about yourself, no half-witted comment is going to phase you. Just because the current trend is to be thin, it doesn't mean that the whole world views fat people as outcasts. Maybe I'm overly optimistic in this area, but I think this isn't a typical cross section of society...Personally, I've never had problems finding a job, never had a problem keeping friends and most of all, I never blame ANYTHING on my weight....

You'll never change other people.....so why bother? You can only change yourself....so, be happy with who you are and diet if you WANT to...

[Ageless]

I have a few to add. :(

One that happened just recently as was I was walking through the gym hall way ... this little punk weighting maybe a $1.05 was passing me, he had plenty of room to pass but he still made it a point to throw himself against the wall and snicker at his friend.
It never ceases to amaze me that these goofy, skinny, funny looking guys wanna dis on 'the fat chicks'. Like I would EVER except a date from THEM! LOL!!!!!

Then there is a pretty major one that I am STILL working through, one with my ex-fiancé.
He told me at the end of our relationship that he was waiting the whole time for me to loose weight and look like I did in pictures he had seen of me. And had also told me that he didn’t think I was THAT fat BUTT..'your arms are a bit flabby and you have a double chin when you laugh'.
Don't miss HIM too much believe me!

*Feels so good to have a place to vent these things! *

Oh, and at almost 6' I get the "Boy! You are a BIG GIRL!" to which I now reply "NO SHIT! I am? Thanks so much for letting me know! " in of course the most sarcastic tone I can muster up....hehe.



:wave:

[Andy Davies]

*Feels so good to have a place to vent these things! *

And so another function of this thread (and forum) - catharsis!

Andy

[Sh'ra]

One that got to me when I was at my full 320 lbs was during a parade day. We had set out chairs for the Residential Care residents and my husband had gone to get them while I guarded the chairs. I was just enjoying the warmth of the day and watching traffic, and a pick-up truck went by with two guys and two girls in the back, obviously on their way to party at the river (lawn chairs, coolers, etc.)

One guy looked my way and said, "What're you looking at, you fat b***h?" I smiled sweetly, waved, and said, "Jesus loves you anyway, you poor little redneck man." His female friend howled with laughter and slapped him, and he just kind of hung his head.

It did hurt, but was also a catharsis for me - number one, rather than being ashamed and depressed for a week, I had a comeback (not all that witty, but it worked at the time). Number two, it made me realize that I didn't want to be fat anymore, and FOR MYSELF I needed to lose weight.

Sh'ra

[wangeci]

Sh'ra

That is horrible, I am sorry :( you had to go through that. You know, being overweight does not make us bad people, it does not make us a &%&*% or any less of a person. It is sad that in the eyes of others we can be perceived this way. Well, losing for yourself is great, it looks like you have done a great job so far.
Keep it up.

Cindy

[Lessara]

I have to tell you this positive story.
When I was in college and was weighing 250, I tutored people in Math, English and Science. I met some great people.
I had two men who were my friends, one because they would cook for me and two they thought I was beautiful not only in my mind but my body. (Yes they said that) Both are from out of the country. I was complimented all the time. One even corrected someone else who made a nasty comment about me. I think it was this early experience that I realized that the world view isn't the same as the city where I came from or the magazine I read.

[Andy Davies]

...which brings us back to Wa'il's excellent and most welcome posting on this thread of the poster Doreen found from years ago. A different, time, a different culture.

Sh'ra - sorry about your unwelcome experience. I spotted that you had a lot to offer weeks ago, on about your 4th post. It's a pity people are so judgmental about superficial appearance, and do not recognise the qualities within.

Lessara - fruits of a different culture, yet again. I can see we'll have to change our culture ourselves!

Andy

[A thin me!]

I made time this morning to sit down and read this post - as I have always glanced at it and wonder what it was about.

My contribution is this:

Looking back - I started out as a fat kid - my Mom would dress us alike - Mother/Daughter dresses. Anyone remember these?
Until, I ate my way out.....

Somehow along the early tween and teen years, I grew into a beautiful, popular, smart, happy person. I look back at photos and wonder who this person was.

During college, my family was financially wiped out due to a fire where everything was lost - including me. I was pronounced D.O.A. but by some miracle this dr. was able to find some a hint of life and save me. Eventually, life returned to normal for my family and we were back where we were. Except for me.

College was tough for a year after that, mentally, physically and I lost a lot of hope and began the spiral into fatness. I did graduate doubled with majors and went on to getting my double masters and law school. If I was in school now, I could never fit into those chair/desk units!!!!

My weight never was an issue during my career - I looked very nice in clothes and never felt any slights from anyone. I carried it well or I was so dazzling, career wise that no one noticed!! LOL

It was not until my family moved into our current area. I refer to it as the "Stepford Village" - based on the movie, the "Stepford Wives."

All wives are thin, attractive, active blond - blue eyed PTO'ers ( I have nothing against them, I was one too.) whose sole uniform is tennis whites all year round. The women do not work and are activelly involved in the schools and tennis and paddle clubs. Most have 3.7 children and a golden retreiver!! I kid not!!

This cloning is especially noticable during the community gatherings throughout the year, 4th of July, Octoberfest and school events. I stick out because I am fat, red-haired, green eyed, FAT, women with one child and the family does not attend the various churches in the area.

Because of my difference from them, I have been shunned and so has my daughter. We do not fit in and it is sad - I have heard the comments behind my back and to my face. My daughter has been the object of meanness. The girls especially are cruel as they are following their moms. At lunch, you will see girls whose lunches consist of Slim Fast shakes or just a salad. These are 11-13 girls. What is the message here?

I have had children come to me and ask when is the baby due? I am not pregnant.

This sadness has made my differences worse, because I would resort to food - food for comfort, food for sadness, food for sanity and food to cover the pain for me and my child. The sadder I became, the more food I would eat and the bigger I got, the sadder I was, the more food I would eat. A never-ending cycle.

I see similiar traits in my child and I want to help her. But, I think I need to help myself first in order to help her. Perhaps this is wrong. I am not sure.

There is more, but this covers the jist and hopefully when you read this, you will understand. Thanks

[KASSY]

Shelley-
That is sad what your friend did to you. That is no friend at all. You keep doing what your doing and be happy with yourself.
I hear alot of - "you have such a beautiful face" , "you looked so good back when..."
My boss told me if I lost 50lbs. I would be able to go out and see our clients more.
I almost filed a harrassment suit against him, and decided the best way to get him back- is to do it- lose the 50lbs. and show him! So, in a backhanded way- his comment motivated me to change my life.
I can lose weight- but he can never lose his nasty attitude- that is something he has to live with !

[Andy Davies]

Hi A Thin Me,

I was very saddened to read your story. This is one situation where I would put the welfare of my wife and children above all other considerations and move away from the area, at whatever cost. These are not just idle words - we were suffering this kind of abuse 18 months ago, and, although it was financially ruinous, we moved to where we are now. Finances are still precarious now, but at least I have a wife that is not in a mental institution, and children who are not scarred for life. Both of these outcomes would definitely have followed if we had stayed where we were. You are in a serious situation there, and I urge you to take drastic action to get out of it. Is there no chance of going back to where you were happy before? I don't think you were rescued from your dead-on-arrival condition to spend the rest of your days in purgatory. And what about your child's welfare?

Your story has me very worried.

Andy

[BaileyWS]

A thin me ...

I echo waht Andy said. I don't pretend to understand all the reasons people end up living where they do. And I understand how you might not feel you have the choice to move ... My experience with neighborhoods like yours -- which many of my friends and colleagues choose for the sake of the kids (better schools, nice houses, etc.) -- is that they are NOT better for the kids in the long run. They teach values that I don't agree with at all -- like the ones that appearance, brands, and consumerism is what matters most in life.

Now we are living in a good mix of a community. The school my daughter attends is 56% spanish speaking, and the social class runs the gamut from illegal immigrants and migrant workers, to doctors and middle to upper management of a major oil company.

Speaking of daughters ... did you see Oprah the other day? It was about anorexia and other eating disorders. They had girls as young as five (!) complaining that they were too fat ... and one girl who was 9 who almost died from eating little more than paper ... she said it filled her up, but she was sure it wouldn't make her fat. It infuriates me that our society has this fat-fear -- like it's the most horendous thing that could happen to a girl.

Oprah was good to point out that these disorders are very complex issues, they are not food issues, and that they are reinforced by media and society. It's sad.

My daughter and I watched it together ... and we discussed how much pressure some girls feel in looking good ... luckily she's not feeling the pressure as much. She's much more interested in health and comfort than in appearances -- that's my girl!

[Tikerberi]

I have been reading this thread and the stories. They have been interesting, but there's something more fascinating for me....

It's all the pictures and weights I've looked at in conjunction with the posts.

There are many of you whose goal weight is a weight a dread to get UP to.....I can't conceive how you see this weight as a benefit when I hate being here so much....

There are many of you who are quite a bit heavier than I am, and yet I wonder how you could possibly look so beautiful when I look so terrible....

There are many of you who have gone from great weights that I would commit suicide at to weights I could never imagine getting down to....

No matter which pictures I looked at, I compared myself, and continually berated myself....

You're right, homegirl. It's how we feel about ourselves....

When I was in Europe, the men there didn't like thin women...the ones who looked like they could bear a dozen kids, help milk cows, and cook huge meat and potatoes meals were the ones that were most attractive. I felt much better about myself there.

When I came here, after a few weeks, I started hating myself for my size....which was relatively normal where I lived in Europe.

One would think that I'd feel the same about myself no matter where I'm at. But, I believe that our culture/society influences us to some degree, and the baggage we carry does the rest.....

Thank you all for being here in this supportive forum.

[otenn]

I don't mean any offence to you with this, but it is interesting to see how much perspective we get from having been to different places and/or different weights in our lives.

I have always though that I would be able to appreciate being 200 lbs like NO ONE would ever be able to appreciate it who hadn't been over 300 in the lives. While I still think this is true, seeing these thoughts from your perspective, makes me realize that the number on the scale doesn't mean much in the big scheme of things, its what going on inside your head that really counts.

If you want to hate yourself, you can do it just as effectively at 120 as 320 I think, you might be able to pretend that the reason for the self hatred is different, but in the end, you will still do it. The problem is not the weight, it is what is causing the weight in the first place. You have to deal with that before you can deal with anything else.

I remember watching Oprah one time, perhaps others saw this show. It was about a family who seemed torn apart because of the husband/father's drinking problem. Everything was screwed up in this family, and all was blamed on the drinking problem. So low and behold, daddy quits drinking, just like that, and ....so you would think...problem solved, right. WRONG!!! Instead, wife figures out that she's been a little screwed up all along too! And sure enough, their marriage and family life is still suffering despite the fact that the PROBLEM is gone. What they realized was that the drinking was just a convenient excuse to hang on the problems that they ever had on. Whenever anything went wrong, it was "blame it on the drinking". But there will still problems when the drinking was gone. So how do you explain that, except to say that you can remove a symptom, but still have the sickness, know what I mean?

You can lose it all, be all Pamela Anderson, if your life sucks from the inside out, it will still suck.

Permit me to share a little joke I heard once:

3 guys are stranded on a dessert island, bottle washes up and genie pops out and offers them one wish each.

First guy wishes he was sitting in the french riviera with a beautiful woman, and "poof" he is gone.

Second guy wishes he was home with his family, sitting around the fireplace telling stories, and "poof" he is gone too.

Third guy gets his turn, looks around and says, "I'm feeling a little lonlely since those other guys left, I wish they were back here...."

Anyway, point of the joke is, you can't make yourself happy from the outside IN. Just like the third guy has tried to do, problem is not really solved. Has to be the other way around. Start thinking about fixing that problem. Low carbing can be a good morale booster as it makes you feel healthier and more energetic, don't give up on the low carbing, but don't hang your last dollar on it either.

Mari

[razzle]

great thread that has made me think...some of those thoughts follow.

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder and even brainwashed me has been able to learn to see beauty in different body types. As a child, my mom had one really large woman friend with a thyroid problem; as a kid, I only saw her as fat, and was guilty of seeing right through her despite that I was already battling my own weight as a kid. Eight years ago, at a family funeral, I saw her again and (oops--this qualifies me as one of the blurtingly rude people, I fear), my mouth fell open and I said, "my god, you're a beautiful woman!" And she is! 300+ pounds and at that point, surely 60 years old, but gorgeous. She was pleased, but what I noticed more was the expression on her husband's face--like "thank god, someone else finally sees this!"

When I was a size 5 for a half-dozen years of starving myself, I hated the reaction to that nearly as much as the reaction to this size. Men glommed onto me, and it scared me more than a little. It also ticked me off. "Where were you when I was a size 22?" I kept thinking. I have come to like being a size 10-12...it keeps the total shallow fools at bay.

I have a perhaps impolite but kinda amusing response to the kind of harassing male boss described in some posts above. I never use a sarcastic tone, but a wide eyed, "isn't this fascinating" sort of voice and say, "Interestingly enough, about 90% of overweight people do not overeat. There's a lot of medical research on this, and I could give you some citations to the professional literature if you'd like. Interestingly enough, size has more to do with the endocrine system, with liver function, with genetics, with enzymes such as LPL and with neuropeptide Y levels. As it ends up, fat cells are no more under a person's voluntary control than is..." and here I pretend to search for a comparison and then pretend to find one "...penis size!" I say chirpily, and smile very brightly.

(And please, don't lecture me about that not mattering either--I know it doesn't, but the sort of man who would insult a large woman to her face for her size is exactly the sort who would fear it does matter...lol. for a woman insulter, maybe substitute "IQ" :D )

And this characterizing of overweight as a medical condition is the truth after all...who goes around saying to someone, "gee you'd be really beautiful if only you got TALLER."

[gecolon]

Wow! After reading all the posts, I wish I knew you all in person! Fat chicks rock!

[YogaBuff]

For me, it's my MIL. She's a VERY 'looks' conscious person, very fat-phobic, very opinionated-and-everybody-is-entitled-to-her-opinion, and to be honet, just plain mean. She's getting older, now (71), and I'm 47, and I'm fully aware that her years are numbered, but after 28 yrs. of her insults, I don't know what else to call her. I have to remind my HUSBAND, her son, to remember this is his mother he's talking about, he gets so irrate with her. ;)

I walk in room--- MIL says- " Oh. I read about a new diet you should try!" (I have never expressed a wish to lose weight in her presence.)

MIL--"Do you remember how thin you were when you were dating M.? You were so cute then. "

We also have to have long one-sided conversations about everybody who's fat and how much fatter they've gotten, how disgusting fat people are, and all designed to get around to discussing how fat I'VE gotten.

MIL to YogaBuff's 15 yr old overweight, but kindhearted and wonderful straight-A student son--"So, D., are you still on any kind of diet to lose that weight?" :mad:

MIL regarding self--" Oh, I know I've put on a few pounds with age, but not until menopause. When I was younger, I ALWAYS kept myself thin!" (She doesn't mention here that this was all done with the help of Dexedrine- dexamphetamine-speed- diet pills, whatever you want to call it, and the fact that she used to be 5'9" and 110# and was just one of those naturally emaciated people).

You can change the subject, she;ll change it back, you can avoid her like the plague--(I do :p as much as one can avoid the grandmother of her children.

SOME people!

YB

[Sh'ra]

Originally posted by Andy Davies

Sh'ra - sorry about your unwelcome experience. I spotted that you had a lot to offer weeks ago, on about your 4th post. It's a pity people are so judgmental about superficial appearance, and do not recognise the qualities within.
Andy [/B]


Andy,
Well, thanks - I hope I have something to offer; I know I've gotten so much from this site that I certainly am pleased if I can at least give a little back. I've enjoyed your posts as well, and have learned a lot, from them and from your articles.


Cindy,
I'm sure we could all share some type of thing that has been said or done that may have hurt - I guess the point is, we can either take those nasty things and use them to improve our lives, or steep in them and become major depressives. The lemons to lemonade theory :)

sh'ra

[Sh'ra]

A Thin Me - I echo the statements made by Andy and Wendy - girl, that neighborhood is NOT a step up, regardless of how nice the homes are or how "good" the schools are. Better to live in a small rural podunk town in the middle of nowhere (my own town comes to mind :rolleyes: ) than in a place where everybody must be a clone to fit in.

Tikerberi - I'm so sorry you feel this way about yourself. And people are right - loss of fat will not make us like ourselves better if we already dislike what we see in the mirror. I'm sure you are a lovely person, inside and out, though I'm also sure you probably won't believe it. I pray that you are shown this, so that you can be happy. I have hated myself, too, for my size, my "lack of control," etc. But you and I have more to offer the world than skinny bodies and toned muscles. We have ourselves - we are beautifully and wonderfully made. Stick around - start a journal and pour out - there are tons of folks here who would love to encourage you. Shalom.

YB - sounds like a great experience visiting her :rolleyes: Just curious - has your husband ever considered telling her that if she continues to harp on the weight issues, she might get visited a lot less? Most people tend to "pick" on someone else out of their own feelings of low self-worth. I'm guessing that picking on you makes her feel somehow better about herself - too bad. But boundaries can be set, and they need to be by hubby, since it's his mother.

Shalom, all
Sh'ra

[kyfaithly]

I do think people of weight are discriminated against.

However, I agree with Homegril that the bigger problem is how we feel about ourselves. Being overweight messes up your self esteem and when we get down on ourselves, it projects itself in lack of confidence. One of the other things I've noticed about people who lose a significant amount of weight is a total change of attitude. In fact, sometimes it makes a person downright cocky and obnoxious!

My best friend has always been very thin and makes statements to me like "Oh, my husband would divorce me if I gained weight" or sometimes "Well, I may be getting older, but at least I'm not overweight." I know she truly loves me, but she seems to be insensitive to her constant references to her petiteness verses my weight. Since she has always been the prima donna sort, I let it go, but it does get to me at times.

[Andy Davies]

I think it's about time I revived this thread. There are a lot of new members now, discussing issues raised here, and I have already referred at least one person here.

Andy

[emcqueen]

Thanks Andy for reviving this thread. It is so important that we all know...that we are not alone.
This is a great thread with lots to offer about the often everyday reminders that fat people have feelings too!!!!!!!!! :) :)
I really abhore the term 'fat people' but I think one of the things I am learning is that it is not shameful to be fat...and if it isn't then why do I feel ashamed of my body.
I joke often about the size of my breasts and even considered a surgical reduction????????
My friends find it amusing that I rest my coffee cup on my "verandah" as they call it. This does not offend me as I joke with some of the others who would give ANYTHING to get some of what I want to get rid of. It is lighthearted banter that we all enjoy.
My 8yr old daughter thinks I should not get rid of "her pillows" but she says if it will make me more healthy then I should go ahead. This is my quandery......WILL it make me more healthy.........all my friends say it will as do the medicos.......I think I'll try this WOE first and get rid of the fat FIRST.....then if surgery is req'd......OK!
I do believe that I have in fact made a DECISION.

THANK YOU ALL FOR 'LISTENING' THANKS AGAIN, ANDY I BELIEVE THAT I HAVE JUST COME TO A TURNING POINT..
I HAVE SAID IN PRINT THAT I AM FAT....I HAVE HUGE BREASTS AND I DON'T THINK THAT SURGERY IS THE ANSWER.....not yet, anyhoo!!!!!!!!!
..............My husband likes me just the way I am!!! I wish I did, I am working on it!!!!!!!!
Good luck to all.
Liz

[Glenda]

I will always remember my doctor saying a very stupid thing to me. After the birth of my second child, I had trouble breastfeeding and I knew he wasn't getting enough nourishment. So I went and asked the doctor for the pills to help dry me up. He did give them to me, but stated that a BIG GIRL like me shoudl have plenty of milk!!! GOD!!!!!!!!
Several years ago, I was lucky enough to be hired in retail in a very nice soap/lotion/perfume etc store. The owner was a former client of mine in a different business, and when I closed the business, she knew me well enough to know that I was good in retail. I was very grateful for her hiring me. But at one point, very soon before I quit, she admonished me in the store one day, saying I should wear something a little longer to cover my stomach. I was absolutely mortified as I think a customer heard her. What I was wearing was perfectly normal, and DID cover my stomach, but obviously, she felt the need to convey her thoughts to me. I will not soon forget that!!!!

Glenda

[Blondie28]

Well here we are again.....Just as I was really getting settled in at my new weight and holding steady for a long time now.... I have been quite pleased with myself and trying to appreciate the weight lost and not worrying to much about the weight to go.

Anyways... I still want to loose 15 more.. or even 10... but anyways I was on some message board the other night and I ended up arguing with some punk and he looked at the picture on my profile and decided that the only way he could get back at me was to call me FAT.. then he told me to put down the twinkies etc etc.. all the stupid stuff you usually hear from someone.

Well at first I laughed and then I really tore into him. I left the chat and then looked at my picture.. I know comments like this shouldnt bother me.. but they do. My first thought was... Ok then its back into induction for me and time to get moving again .... and then you know i sat there thinking this shouldnt bother me etc.. but it does... it hurts soo much when the only thing a person can say to you is about your weight... Dont these people realize what the power of words can do to someone who is self conscious about thier weight? I am going to leave a link to the photo that I use.. I know most people will say " you look fine" but it still got under my skin and yes it has motivated me to get started again. But I mean whats gonna happen to me when I am at my goal??? Or at 140 and bone thin??? What do these people want ?? When will they ever be satisfied? My god its driving me nuts!!!

http://www.geocities.com/burningbush26/shan3.jpg

[EllieEats]

I have been fortunate to have found this forum and Atkins before I got TOO far out of hand.... the worst I was called was "Chunky" and I hated it!! (Of coarse.. who knows what was said BEHIND my back!!)

I work as a waitress-- over 30 years--- and I can't count how many times a heavy girl would apply for work and as soon as she left the comments would start!! ............She won't fit between the tables, she'll eat all my profits, people will be afraid to eat and end up looking like that, too fat to get under the tables clean----
HORRIBLE THINGS!!! And needless to say they were never called back!

My Mom was 300+ a good part of her life and a nurse. She was constantly told it didn't look good to have someone working in the health field that was so overweight!! I'm sure there were jobs she lost out on over the years just for that reason!!

All I can say is... THERE WILL ALWAYS BE NARROW MINDED PEOPLE!!! :thdown:
Ellie :wave:

[Andy Davies]

Hi Liz, Glenda, Blondie and Ellie,

Apologies for not replying sooner, but I didn't realise you had all posted - discovered it by chance!

Blondie, I know what you mean about how demoralising people's thoughtless comments can be when you think you have made tremendous progress, and left the worst behind you, as a recent incident will demonstrate. It was a filthy night, dark, wet, windy and cold, just a few days ago. I was out with one of my children, my 8-year old, and we were walking on a sidewalk to the local supermarket to get a few provisions we needed for that night. A cyclist came tearing along the sidewalk towards us, with no lights on and total disregard for any other users of the sidewalk.

If I had been on my own, I would have stepped to one side and let the incident pass, but having my son with me made me think about what would happen if my 8-year old son had been on his own, so I decided not to let this cyclist get away with it. The sidewalk was only wide enough for two people, side by side, not a bicycle as well. The cyclist slowed down to go round a signpost, so I stood in his way. This man shouted vile abuse at me, and told me to get out of his *** way. I explained that the sidewalk existed to protect pedestrians from the likes of him, that we were entitled to be there, while he was not, and that it was he who should get out of the way, not me. He leapt off his bike, threatened physical violence, then started a torrent of abusive comments about my weight and size, calling me a "Fat ******" and various other choice names, to my embarrassment, in front of my son.

I have often noticed that people who trangress rules of behaviour and decency are extremely unreasonable, and virtually impossible to persuade by logic or reasoning. Their answer is always violence, abuse, and - most commonly of all - mocking your size and shape in crude, loud and loutish terms. Ironically, I had just been congratulating myself on the amount of weight I had lost, and what a difference there was between now and when I weighed about 75 pounds more. But, like Blondie, my pleasure was short-lived. Unfortunately, my reaction was the reverse of hers, and I ended up gaining a couple of pounds more. Was it worth the aggro? Was this lout persuaded in future to think of pedestrians, especially children? I don't think so

[firespirit]

Just got back from vacation: I flew to and from Michigan, and even though I can still fit (barely) comfortably into a plane seat, I always have concern upon boarding about seating arrangements.

On the way out, there was one other person in our aisle when I got there--a woman about my age and size. She had the aisle seat and I had the window and we sat there hoping for a skinny person to fill the middle. When the occupant got there he was a normal sized male who then went to find the stewardess and proceeded to tell her he couldn't possibly fit in there. (There was ample room for him :mad: ) He then (tactless, very tactless) dragged the stewardess over by her arm to "show" her that he couldn't sit there. :bash: :bash: She said, "We'll see, sir, when boarding is finished. But you may have to sit there--there is enough room." Thankfully he found another seat, because I would have been mortified to sit next to him after that.

Instead me and very pleasant companion put up the arm rests and proceeded to enjoy the extra space. Another happiness that the jerk was not there is that she turned out to be a very interesting person to talk with and listen to. The whole incident spurred her to tell me that she had lost 100 lbs, but had gained it all back--and how much more hurtful stupid people were now that she had experienced how differently she was treated when she was "normal".

It has been much more helpful to me to make a strong effort to not take such rude people's comments to heart. I have been in situations where I allowed such comments to be an excuse for me to indulge myself (you know--he's right, and its hopeless, and I think I'll have some chocolate cream pie :rolleyes: ) Now I try to look at it more objectively.

Sadly, the man with no manners was very nice looking and well-dressed. To all around he was probably the picture of happiness and success. But I know the truth--He is a tactless, arrogant jerk who I wouldn't trade places or bodies with!!!! :D I'm much happier just being me :yay:

[Aine]

Great thread Andy!

Boy, have I heard lots of these comments too.

Oh! YOu could be a model, if only.... :(

I'd want you to be my girlfriend if you were thirty pounds lighter... :cry:

YOu'd look great if you stomach was flat.... :mad:

Oh, you've gained so much weight...what's wrong with you? :thdown:

You're beautiful, but.. :mad:

I like you but my friends think you're too fat. (prospective bfriend)

ANd so on. The worst ever was being told by a quack of a therapist that I was sexually molested as a little girl,because I was physically mature for my age,and must have been very sexy, so my molester couldn't resist me! I still haven't recovered from that one! :confused:

That's all folks.

[Andy Davies]

Thanks Firespirit and Aine.

Two more good contributions.

When you start reading about these reactions of skinny people towards us, it makes you cringe with shock and embarrassment. Gradually, you become angry with a slow-burning, seething kind of anger at the condescending arrogance of these people, whose careless remarks and nasty natures make our lives so lastingly unpleasant.

One thing has come out of this. If ever I have a lot of money, and employ people, I will only employ overweight ones. It will be a safe haven for an abused majority. The people on this forum are good evidence that the nicest people are those others consider overweight, and the nasty remarks all come from those that I consider unnaturally thin!

Perhaps the answer came out of a discussion I had with Kezza. She was talking about people being of two metabolic types: those who retain their fat (like us) and those who readily part with it. I conjectured that those who readily part with theirs would not have fared so well in the days when man had to hunt for his food. There were times when the hunter failed, and man had no food for 2 or 3 days at a time. Our sort of metabolism was better fitted to survive those times, which continued for millions of years, and ended only a couple of generations ago, when food started to become contantly plentiful. In that situation, the skinny person must have envied our greater reserves to cope, and this I reckon is part of their in-built resentment and superciliousness now! They are getting their own back after thousands of years of feeling less adequate themselves!

Just surmising, of course...

Andy

[googybuzzy]

Hi ..this whole thing has really got my blood up..Ive experienced some really nasty stuff said to me from coworkers and inlaws and horrendous teenaged boys on the street..enough to ruin my day and send me home in tears...BUT i wasn't always a large girl..I got this way by using Fluoxitine (an Anti depressant) which basically saved my life..but I gained 80 pounds in 5 months!!eeekk...anyway.. I was 130 lbs and in shape in 1999..so this is all pretty new ..Now..(before all this weight gain) I have had trouble with many different larger gals being nasty to me and shutting me out and making rude comments and basically just awful to me on more than one time..this hurt really bad because they would attack my weight..accusing me of anorexia or puking up my food and watching me like a hawk around their boyfriends and husbands ( like I was going to steal them or something..OUCH!!) this kind of nastiness was unprovoked..just confusing and sad...So my point is.. it unfortunatly goes both ways..and it hurts just as bad..( I aughta know.. Ive felt it myself both ways..) .BE kind to everyone... you' ll never know where you'll find a friend :wave: ..off soapbox..

[susi]

I understand what you are saying, but would you feel this way had the world not conditioned you to that? Society tells us that we "aren't really worth it" if we are overweight. We are invisible many tiimes and those of us that have a very outgoing personality are the lucky ones, because we will NOT be invisible. But what about the shy ones? I do know deep down that my body will be much better, my overall health will suffer, if I don't get this weight off, but we have been conditioned to believe that slender is the only acceptable form. Look at the models during Renoir and Degas' time; they certainly were not thin, but well rounded and considered beautiful. I wish I could be happy with myself as I am, but I can't and that is due to a lot of different things. So we must find the happy medium.

[jmary]

I must agree on many levels. Because I'm tall, I "carry" my weight well. But, I don't want to carry it. It slows me down.
My dear sister is over 400 pounds. I love her to bits, but I worry about her constantly. She is 61 this month and has already had a heart attack. She takes medication, won't take her diuretic when she's at work 'cause she doesn't want to have to go up and down the stairs where the wee wee pot is! She's stubborn and infuriating, but I know it's to cover up the hurt in her heart. We had a difficult childhood. Sometimes I just want to go live with her and cook for her and care for her and help her to start walking 100yds or so every day etc. etc. She'd run me off in a minute. We do talk about it. Her husband is one of these skinny little guys who eats loads, loves his beer, but thinks nothing of walking ten miles a day, or whatever to get where he going! He doesn't drive. Anyway, she's in the UK and I'm in the USA for now. She probably loves it that way!!
I don't ever have a "tude" towards overweight people, but for me, it's my own sense of well being that motivates me. My husband loves me just as I am, although there's 75 more pounds of me than when we married.
It's health and well being I want, for me and for all the people here. OK, I sound patronizing, don't mean to. I know the difference that 50 pounds makes and the energy available to me when I'm slimmer. I love to garden, without pain; and walk without exhaustion. At 55+ the weight makes a huge difference, bones and cartellage (sp?) are wearing. I want to retain as much as I need as long as I can.
None of my feelings are an excuse for people being rude. But people are insensitive and self centred for the most part. Except everyone in this forum of course ;)
Even if we never reach our goal, we should stay on the path, choose our responses to temptation, find a place within ourselves where we are safe from whatever, and go there when confronted.
Ok I'll shut up. This is why I annoy my sister!!!
All the best,
Jackie

[Cali]

While being plump is fine, surely being very over weight or obese is unhealthy.

It's not about discrimination , it's about health.

I'm worried that this thread is turning into support for being fat, when surely we are all here because we want to lose weight?

I agree that we shouldn't lose weight to please others but for ourselves, however we could navel gaze and split hairs forever about where out self esteem originates .

Surely losing weight is about exercising restraint, not constraint. If we can gain control over our bodies, our emotions and our actions then we can act with integrity and good manners.

To quote Stephanie Dowrick:
"Restraint is not a habit. It is every time it happens, a fresh act of will, an expression of your freedom to decide for yourself. An expression of your choice to act- or not. Your choice to be true to waht you believe is important, or not. Your choice to be loving to yourself and thoughtful about the social good, or not"

The social good is significant.

I would be sorry to see this thread disintegrate into Fat people versus The Thin.

[Blondie28]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cali
While being plump is fine, surely being very over weight or obese is unhealthy.

It's not about discrimination , it's about health.<snip>

I think this thread was started as a general discussion for people to discuss how we are sometimes seen as in " the eyes of others" indicates. Just because someone thinks being obese is unhealthy, it does not justify the discrimination that some overweight/obese people are subjected to.. (yes it is about discrimination btw)

>>I'm worried that this thread is turning into support for being fat, when surely we are all here because we want to lose weight?<< <snip>

Yes we are all here not because we want to loose weight.. but because we ARE loosing weight...

Even if it were support for being fat what would be the harm in that? Support in general is just that... support.. The support I have gotten here has been wonderful and has helped me make tremendous progress. And something tells me I am not the only person who feels this way. :p

I get the same support at 205 that I got at 225 and I will get the same support when I am at 190 or wherever I choose to settle.



>>I would be sorry to see this thread disintegrate into Fat people versus The Thin.

Well I dont think this thread was ever in danger of that...but you seem to be taking offence to the experiences people are saying they have had... Which I don't understand.. unless you yourself are feeling guilty/or not and just defending yourself or others for berating a fat person?

Actually come to think of it... I am offended by this post as a whole... because what you really seem to be saying is that our thoughts and feelings about things that have been done/said to us because we are/were fat is NOT important? It is not about " a thin person said this " it is about " this person has hurt my feelings"

Sorry but thats just the impression I got from your post.

Best of luck
Shannon

[BaileyWS]

Cali ... I agree with you in that we ought not let our weight become a dividing issue ... we must work that nothing becomes a dividing issue ... just because someone is thin, doesn't mean they are going to be rude; just like fatness doesn't imply sensitivity.

However, this thread is very important because more often than not, being severely overweight IS a health issue ... a genetic presupposition to store fat rather than use or eliminate the energy we consume.

It's wrong, then, to assume that a person who's fat has a character flaw (lazy, undisciplined, uncontrolled appetite) ... at least any more than you would assume that a thin person has the same flaws. It's stereotyping ... and it's wrong. Yet this is the kind of treatment so many of us have received because of our weight.

I was told once, that a church should not ordain a fat person to the ministry ... because being fat showed moral weakness (gluttony) ... I am an ordained pastor, and I was over 100 pounds "overweight." While I didn't profess to be spiritually or even morally perfect (we all make mistakes, we all fall short), I don't think my weight should be a bearing on whether or not I can be a spiritual leader. And I don't think my weight alone is a sign of spiritual impropriety.

I am overweight for a variety of reasons ... metabolism, low thyroid, PCOS, inactivity, addiction to chocolate and sugar etc. I have a goal weight listed because it's the number in the height/weight charts that fits ... but I honestly don't know if I could or really want to reach that goal ... my real goal is not a number, it's a way of life -- to be healthy, balanced, and well. To some extent, I'm already living that goal ...

To laugh at "fat jokes", to be disgusted by people who are too big to fit in airplane seats, to pass over overweight people for jobs, promotions, etc. because they don't fit an image (or a uniform) ... these things are hurtful, discriminating, and wrong.

I should be able to choose to eat a half a peice of cheesecake at a luncheon without being shamed by the colleague across the table ... I am an intelligent human being who can make reasonable decisions regarding what I eat and what I don't eat. That colleague across the table may be just as addicted to sugar, but is blessed with a metabolism which doesn't store the sugar in the hips. Does that make her any better than me?

I choose this woe because I was fed up with the fact that I was not "fit" enough to hike up a mountain in Guatemala. I am not doing this because "thin is better", I'm doing it because I was not physically able to live the life I wanted to live ... and, luckily, this woe combined with regular excersise is working for me. But I realize that I may not always be in control of these things ... that health is not guaranteed for every person ... and people with health problems should not be shamed, laughed at, disdained etc.

Ok, I'll stop now (stepping down off the soapbox)

[Andy Davies]

Hi all,

Thanks for all your replies.

When I first started up this thread, I just wanted to take a light-hearted look at the way other people see us, and how we react to this. But I was very soon touched by the stories and experiences of others, and the blatant discimination they had suffered, not to mention indignity and unfair treatment.

In all of my 49 years of life, I have never found such a truly nice bunch of people as there are here. The genuine loving support reported by Blondie 28 is one of those wonderful features of this site which makes me so attached to it, and want to contribute my own little bit of help, where I can.

At the outset, I always intended to couple this thread with one that I have talked about starting for months now, which contains copies of individual posts from around this forum that we have found inspirational. My delay has come from not being able (yet) to find the 2 or 3 posts I wanted to start it off with (because they are in the long thread in the triple digits forum, and my efforts to find them have so far failed. It still remains my intention to offer this twin view of ourselves - from these experiences in this thread, and from the highly inspirational and motivativating posts of the as yet unstarted thread.

But as with children, although you may give something life, it soon becomes obvious that it has a character and direction of its own, which is what very quickly happened with this thread. It always had a vitality and forcefulness I had never envisaged, and soon went off in unforeseen directions. I am simply happy that it has stimulated thought and discussion, and I am personally very grateful for the perspective and understanding it has given me.

All views are welcome. I am delighted that another complexion has been added by Googybuzzy, which I think introduces a further perspective to things. If Cali thinks the thread has become indulgent, I respect her right to this opinion, and to state it, but it does not change mine, and I make no apologies for the posts herein. I also acknowledge the loyalty of Blondie and Wendy, and admire their eloquence as well as their support.

Maybe Susi has it right, attitudes depend on the prevailing fashion and social climate, and as she and Wa'il both pointed out, what is considered outrageously obese now was considered attractive and elegant in a bygone age. All we can strive for, I think, is to achieve our own objectives, and to satisfy our own goals. Whatever the motivation, the process of change is beneficial, and the weight we lose will be good for our health and spirits.

Continued good luck to my fellow strugglers against weight. And may we be both tolerant of each other, and helpful wherever we can.

Best wishes,

Andy

[Cali]

Bailey, I think you have summed up the issues beautifully, I appreciate your putting nto words which I immediately recognise as being true.
I didn't mean to be offensive, but yes I don't like wallowing in self pity. I am against discrimination of all forms. We are in a horrendous position here in Australia with Afghani refugees being treated like criminals and thrown into concentration like camps. And as for our record with the aborigines and against women and against intellectualism (cut education funding) and children and yes "larger 'people, well, I suppose we are bad as anywhere else. I hate intolerance and no doubt I am guilty of it many times , being within my culture, not without.
Yes it's good to get out our stories of discrimination on the basis of size, so we feel no, I'm not the only one.
I do think it's sad when we can't fit into a seat when there are children starving etc etc. I don't think airlines should increase the size of their seats, I think we should stop patronising MacDonalds and all the other purveyors of junk food. I don't think this is discrimination. healthier, not necessarily thinner people have healthier minds.
If you are intolerant of my views, well.....

[Blondie28]

Originally posted by Cali
I do think it's sad when we can't fit into a seat when there are children starving etc etc. I don't think airlines should increase the size of their seats,


Well then put down your cheeseburger and send it to the starving kids if you really care so much.

You cant possibly believe that because we have heavy people in the world that they have in some way contributed to the children of the world starving....

I think unfortunetly based on what you have just said.. you too are of the mindset that fat people eat too much....

I think we should stop patronising MacDonalds and all the other purveyors of junk food. I don't think this is discrimination. healthier, not necessarily thinner people have healthier minds.
If you are intolerant of my views, well.....


I think you picked the wrong place to spew your political beliefs its obvious you have not been subjected to the kind of discrimination as others here have...This is not about a war on McDonalds...haahahahah! And something tells me you wouldn't be singing the quite so harsh song that you are if you had ever seen the other side of 200+

And has for your views on healthy people with healthy minds? I know alot of fat people with healthier minds then you........


And thats all I have to say about that.....

Shannon

[Andy Davies]

Whew! OK, now let's see what I can do to bring people with equally important views to some kind of amicable understanding of each other, and about this forum.

Firstly, I think it is important for everyone to feel they are valued, and have a right to come here and express thier views.

Secondly, I have always been most impressed with members here for their ability to discuss issues which are sometimes contentious in an atmosphere of mutual respect and tolerance.

Thirdly, this is a support group, in which members come to give and receive mutual assistance for their low-carbing way of life and other LC issues. We have enough to put up with from people outside this support group, as earlier posts here clearly indicate, and it is important to keep this as one haven we can come to without the prejudices and vitriol of the outside world creeping in.

Having said that, there are a few actual points to comment upon, and I shall try to keep these as impersonal as possible.

It is a scientific fact that people who are overweight do not, in the vast majority of cases, overeat. If required, I can produce evidence that being overweight is not a result of over-indulgence, lack of willpower, gluttony, or any similar stereotype, but is in fact caused by a metabolic deficiency. Couple this with modern over-refining, and you have an all too familiar situation, hence the presence of all of us here.

I, too, feel terrible about the starving millions in the world. But I am not able to fight all the ills of the world on my own, and all I can try to do here is make a small difference to others like me who have suffered discrimination and similar experiences.

And I agree that Wendy Bailey summed things up beautifully.

It is always possible to start up a new thread. Sometimes I read posts in which it is obvious that a whole topic could be sparked off. It is always worth considering a new thread. When I started this one, I could not foresee more than half a dozen replies, and 20 or 30 views. And here we are, pushing towards 2,000 views and around 80 replies. And what about Mari (Otenn)? When she started up the now famous triple digit thread "Who has 100 pounds to lose?" did she think for one moment it would have well over 6,000 views, several hundred replies, and spawn a whole sub-forum? Did she think that until it was overtaken by Nat's journal, it would be the most viewed and popular thread on this entire site? I expect not. Being able to cause controversy with an idea or a way of expressing it is a good indication of a theme which can run and run. So, it may be that this particular thread has just about outrun its course, fulfilled its destiny, reached the end of the road, and it may be that another new and vital thread is waiting to burst forth upon the scene from one of these contentious themes (or the members posting them) which are now beginning to show themselves here.

Andy

[Blondie28]

Andy if I could steal your signature for a moment this thread has been a wonderful read... and like you always say..

always thought provoking, if not plain ole provoking

That indeed this thread has been!

Now get going and start another equally stimulating thread haahahah!

Hugs
Shannon

PS.

Your weight loss is incredible....and I am SO happy for you... Keep it up! I know you will reach your goal!

[Andy Davies]

Thanks Shannon - Ill try, but I rather meant others might feel inspired to do it!

The signature line came from Victoria, as part of a post she wrote to me, describing what she felt about my presence here! I liked it and adopted it.

Your own contributions here are pretty impressive too. Now all we need is a good signature line to bestow on you...

Andy

[BaileyWS]

Originally posted by Cali
I hate intolerance and no doubt I am guilty of it many times , being within my culture, not without.

You make a very important point here ... we are all a part of our own cultures and it's very difficult to see the world from the point of view of another ... from another culture, another weight, another faith, another socio-economic group. Yet, tolerance requires just that ... to be able to see, for just a bit, how our different experiences create different sensitivies, different assumptions, etc.

This thread became the place it did, in part, because people who have been hurt by a segment of our culture needed to support each other, share stories with people who understood the hurt and pain, and maybe gain enough strength to be able to stand up against the stereotypes and discrimination.


I do think it's sad when we can't fit into a seat when there are children starving etc etc. I don't think airlines should increase the size of their seats, I think we should stop patronising MacDonalds and all the other purveyors of junk food. I don't think this is discrimination. healthier, not necessarily thinner people have healthier minds.

OK ... here I have trouble following you ... there is really no direct correlation between people not fitting in seats in an airplane and children starving. Nor is McDonald's or McDonald's patrons the perpetrators of world hunger ... I have to admit, though, when I returned from Guatemala after spending 2 nights and three days in the mountains with a Mayan family, seing how little they needed to survive and how little they had ... I was ashamed by my relatively gluttoness lifestyle (not just what I was choosing to eat, but how much I was consuming in all areas of my life, how many THINGS I felt were necessities, and how wasteful I was of precious resources) ... I even had to think twice before following a high-protein diet (when even a little chicken for broth is a treasured comodity in Guatemala). I realized that my challenge was to eat in a way that makes me healthy, thank God I am able to afford to make this kind of decision for my own life, and my responsibility is to use the gifts I have in the most faithful way ... a challenge I am still learning to live up to.

There are lots of reasons why hunger exists in the world ... most having to do with corrupt and oppressive governments, exploitative capitalists, lack of education and land-use issues. I choose to give to organizations like Bread for the World, and I visit the hungersite ... to do my part.

And, BTW, I do think that airlines should provide larger seats and more leg-room ... ever try flying coach oversees? It's painful and unhealthy for just about everyone on the plane. People need more space especially for 14-18 hour flights!

Cali, I hope that we can all learn from each other ... welcome to the board ... I hope you can learn from those of us who have a different way of viewing the world ... and we can grow in understanding.

[BaileyWS]

Shannon, I appreciate your position. I agree that healthy attitudes is just as important as healthy bodies.

I have found over the years that arguing points is much more effective than belittling people. Hurling insults is not appropriate use of this forum which is a place where communication is encouraged, and different points of view are shared.

[Cali]

I was trying to imply by "children starving etc etc" all the ills of the world caused by all the things you mention Bailey. It sounds simplistic if taken at face value but I was using the phrase as a metaphor for evrything else. That we do over consume and waste things, life, unnecessarily.

Likewise, I use MacDonalds as a symbol that people within affluent Western culture can relate to as being a corporation that encourages unhealthy eating and hence life style, wastefullness, eg the zillions of junky plastic toys and packaging leading to increased landfill; greed, look at the advertising, stereotyping ; 'typical happy' families which exclude all the other choices and realities of families and living arrangements these days - gay, single, celibate etc and who harass primary school children with "MacDonald's Days" that sell junky hamburger and fries lunches to 5 year olds to raise money for schools that should be provided by more responsible, quality of education minded governments.

These are only tip of the iceberg things. I don't read propaganda, this is just what I have observed. No doubt there are corporations better and worse than Maccas but it's not the place to go into all this.

Yes I've been back and forth across the world between Italy, England and Australia in 'cattle class', which is a 24 hour flight one way. Of course it's uncomfortable, but then it's economy and considerably more so than it was 20 years ago. At least there's no smoking on board any more.

Wider seats would be nice but they are not necessary. You don't expect airlines to provide more leg room for all the very tall people, or lower head rests for all the very short people;.

Physical variables are so many, airlines provide for the average and indeed they have increased the size of seats somewhat on par with the shifting average but do you expect, or want them to provide special extra large seats for the "large/overweight/obese/metabolically challenged" people.
Certainly it would be more convenient and comfortable for both the people who need these seats and those sitting next to them, but at what cost?
And should coaches and buses and trains do the same?And resturantsand bars? What about bar stools?
Iam not discriminating against the very fat. It is just a matter of public transport and other systems doing the best they can for a diverse population.
Iknow it's not overeating and I can't see, reading my original post, how you managed to construe this. As I've said, MacDs is a symbol for all that I see as being wasteful, unhealthy overconsuming and trashy in the !st world.
Enough said.

[Pete]

As a relative newcomer, Andy directed me to this thread after I just posted something in Introductions. This may prove to be an unpopular post.

Its interesting to see how the discussion ultimately drifts to intolerance and implied discrimination. I for one, believe people will discriminate against you if your overweight and you're not likely to change that - unless you change yourself.

I've seen a lot of inferences about metabolism and genetics. Well, I don't really believe that's the root cause of being very overweight for most people. Now I suppose I'm going to get it here, but if you stop and think about it, somehow, the body tries to balance caloric intake with use. Its not too hard to figure out what goes wrong when you gain weight.

The real issue is health of course, but looking good is very good too. The problem is the two issues are interrelated. Health Canada warns that a waist size of over 40" (for men I think) is a real danger and the incidence of fatal disease increases dramatically for such people.

But what I'm really struck by is the acceptance by many in this thread that is your personal happiness that counts and that weight targets are simply that, targets. Well, I supppose people addicted to alcohol and cocain use the same tortured logic. I think your selling yourselves short. Yes, as previous posts reverberate: we're all adults, you can make choices, its your life.
That's the point really, it is your life - don't give up on it.

[Karen]

I've seen a lot of inferences about metabolism and genetics.

Keep on reading the forum and you'll be amazed at how many people here, past and present have damaged their metabolism by years of calorie restriction, low-fat dieting and bullemia. Low-carb and increasing lean muscle mass can heal it.

Now I suppose I'm going to get it here, but if you stop and think about it, somehow, the body tries to balance caloric intake with use.

Have you thought of reading Protein Power, Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution, Dr. Bernstein's Diabetic Solution, The Schwarzbein Principle, CAD or CALP so you'll know what your talking about when discussing "caloric intake with use" on a low-carb support forum? Low-carbing doesn't exactly work that way.

I for one, believe people will discriminate against you if your overweight and you're not likely to change that - unless you change yourself.

'Yer preachin' to the choir, but thanks anyway.

Karen

[Pete]

Karen,

I may have not expressed myself in a technically correct way and "caloric" is probably not a good word in this context. But that's not my real point. I'm sure there's a lot of technical and medical research studies explaining why people are overweight. We face a lot of temptations in North America and it’s not too hard to develop a problem – just travel through a food court in a shopping centre. I've been there, like a some other people in this forum. I'm certainly not trying to criticize a particular diet program and without a doubt, some people have medical issues to contend with.

What I'm really getting at is the theme and debate that is really running through this thread. Without a doubt, it’s hard to accomplish difficult things and I’m quite sympathetic to the discrimination that occurs against overweight people. But to your point, “(losing weight) to be more attractive outwardly is a losing battle. What happens when you don't feel attractive?”

Why is trying to be more attractive by losing weight a losing battle? One could view that as discriminatory. The real point is, don’t let it be an excuse.

[Karen]

Why is trying to be more attractive by losing weight a losing battle? One could view that as discriminatory. The real point is, don’t let it be an excuse.

It's not an excuse, but it's what some people live with out of habit. They may have actually forgotten that it's an excuse because it's now second nature. It can a real struggle for many people because they unable or are unwilling to find the means to take care of themselves. Many are frightened. Many try to bend the rules to suit their own particular needs. Many just feel hopeless.

Food addictions, low-self esteem and a host of other reasons come into play. What happens when willpower lags, when the enormity of the task is just that - so enormous that it is incomprehensible?

What happens when you don't feel attractive?

Hopefully nothing. Hopefully everyone can reach a point where they can take it at face value. Some people work on their outside and inside because they have come to believe that it's the path to well-being.

Those that are willing to "do what it takes" find their own way, in their own time. I think that's one of the reasons why this forum thrives.


Karen

[Pete]

Karen,

Those that are willing to "do what it takes" find their own way, in their own time.

I agree.

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by Pete
I'm sure there's a lot of technical and medical research studies explaining why people are overweight. We face a lot of temptations in North America and it’s not too hard to develop a problem – just travel through a food court in a shopping centre. I've been there, like a some other people in this forum. I'm certainly not trying to criticize a particular diet program and without a doubt, some people have medical issues to contend with.

Facing temptation isnt the only issue for many of us, if only it were that simple, - it goes much deeper. Some of us are dealing with addiction, some with medical issues - and we are being told from all sides that we should eat a low fat, high carb, calorie restricted diet to be healthy. Low carb has saved our lives. This is not hyperbole. This is also not a 'diet' - we strive to eat this way for the rest of our lives.

Nat

[Andy Davies]

Just for the record, there are two types of metabolism: one can cope with carbohydrates, the other cannot. For those who can, a calorie-controlled diet is the answer to shifting those few (and it always is just a few) extra pounds. For those who cannot, the inability to do so is caused by a deficiency in the enzyme chains which break down carbohydrates. The problem for this second group is that the world keeps shouting at it to take the cure which is effective for the first group, that is low calories, low fat and high carb. This cannot and never will solve the weight problems of the second group, for which the only cure is a low intake of carbohydrates. And this is why it is a way of life, not just some diet.


These are medically and scientifically proven facts. If you like, I am able to quote chapter and verse the research studies which led to this information being discovered.

So let us have no more of this nonsense about gaining weight being linked to over-eating. The vast majority of members here have continued to gain weight while eating fewer and fewer calories (because they were told by the world at large that if they are gaining weight then however few calories they are eating, it is still too many, and that in order to lose weight, they must eat even fewer). Round about the time most of us have been on a semi-starvation diet for long enough to feel weak and dizzy, we start noticing the real truth, instead of what people tell us is fact.

For many of us, it seems incredible after all we have been through that the true remedy is so simple and so painless, and I see many posts from new members saying they can't believe how well they can eat and still lose weight, when previously they ate so little but still gained it.

And make no mistake about this, either. The folks here have immense willpower - far more than their critics who tell them to apply self-discipline to their eating.

I am prepared to accept a considerable range of opinions here, provided they are expressed politely, but one thing I absolutely will not tolerate is the imputation that people who are overweight deserve to be, due to their self-indulgence.

Andy

[cathyc]

i think we really have to get over what we look like and i can't help to think those of us who have gained 100 lb+ over :D our "ideal" weight did it because of the remarks.
I know myself as a young teenager when the remark of "you won't find a husband" or "you would be soooo pretty" made me get my back up and would send into a binge.
I chose the low carb way of life because because my weight was going up 10 lb a year and with no slowing down in sight not because of how i looked.
One of the most insightful remarks made to me was a lady who said that in her mind she was beautiful. Fat or thin she would look in the mirror and say wow im hot stuff. and i guess i feel that way too!
At my heaviest i still attracted my husband and sometime others(much my horror) as well.
I think you do the best with what you have and you do all you can to make youself feel confident and people will gravitate towards you.
To prove my point, how many of us know people that are soooo down on themself and think so little of themself and yet have only 10 lb of excess weight.
be happy deal with your weight but first and foremost BE HAPPY! :wave:

[Andy Davies]

Thanks Cathy, a great attitude.

Andy

[Homegirl]

Originally posted by cathyc:
i can't help to think those of us who have gained 100 lb+ over our "ideal" weight did it because of the remarks.

I am sorry but this sounds suspiciously like the wife beater who said "I did it because my wife didn't have supper ready on time." How we react to situations or comments is entirely our own responsibility.

Originally posted by cathyc:
I think you do the best with what you have and you do all you can to make youself feel confident and people will gravitate towards you.

I agree, with the caveat that you can't feel confident unless you own your decisions and actions--the good and the bad.

Bobbie

P.S. I think I shouldl make myself clear that I am talking about our attitudes and actions in reaction to what other's say because I believe, I should say I know, that Andy is absolutely right re the science behind body types and weight gain.

[susi]

Yea Andy! Can you please talk to my grandmother? She always let me know that all I had to do was push myself away from the table and I would lose that weight. So here I am and I have pushed myself away many, many times. You guys out there do not know what a great support you are to those of us struggling. Thanks for being there. Anybody have an answer about coffee? No or yes? Thanks, Susi

[cathyc]

sorry to disagree with you home girl but we are all a product of our upbringing and enviroment and even in your scenerio of the wife beater it often is cycular and to say that negativity and insensitivity doesn't effect us is blind.
Yes, we do our best to cope and we wouldn't be talking on a forum like this if we weren't being accountable and trying to make a change would we?

[Homegirl]

I didn't say that what other people do or say doesn't affect us. That's a given. And yes, sometimes behaviour patterns get passed on from generation to generation.

However, my point was that we CAN choose how we act/react to what others say and do. The wife beating behaviour started somewhere along the line of generations and it can stop somewhere along the line too. However, someONE has to make a choice in order for the behaviour to either stop or start.

And yes, I agree we all come here for support in changing and making ourselves better people. But we also come for knowledge in order to make those changes. It's awfully hard to make good choices when the information we have is limited. This forum is a wealth of information. We have the benefit of learning from other's positive and negative experiences and we can also learn by being told what we need to hear rather than what we want to hear.

Bottom line is being honest with ourselves about who we actually are and deciding who we want to be. This affects all areas of our lives including our health and our weight.

[Cali]

Well said.I couldn't agree more.
Cali

[Andy Davies]

I agree Homegirl. Well said.

Andy

[Pete]

Bottom line is being honest with ourselves about who we actually are and deciding who we want to be. This affects all areas of our lives including our health and our weight.

Well said Homegirl; I was trying to express this sentiment for about two consecutive days somewhere else in this forum but you seem to have done it much more succinctly and effectively.

[raindancer]

Hi There :)

Well I have read all the messages posted about the (RUDE) things thin people can say.......(they must think being over weight smoothers your emotions!!) I have compiled a list my favorite things I have been told over the years!

Ps: I am not a negative person.....on a Downer... I worte these down for a smile! :roll:

* (When I was younger) Adults would openly in front of me tell my mom "Mary you better get a reign on your daughters weight, it would be a shame for her to grow up fat."

* "You have a beautiful face" Weeeww How glad am I that the rest of me is invisible!!

* " You have put on some weight"....What would I do without these people? I guess I would have to buy a mirror, since I have no clue what I look like now!!! I wondered why my pants don't fit!

* " You know I would never say this to hurt you--BUT " (speech/lecture) This is where when they get to the end of the sentence I so proudly pip up........Good if you dont want to hurt me , we won't go there, will we? ..... (Smiling the whole time) It kinda turns the table around.

* "Why dont you just stop eating" Well ....I plan on doing that as soon as you stop breathing!! People don't understand. If you have a drug problem.....Stop taking drugs!! You do not have to have them to live.....However you do have to eat. If you are a drug addict . Stay away from people or situations that may influence you. FOOD is everywhere ! (try one time to avoid places there might be food) Good luck! (LOL)

Overall in my life I have found that others who are so quick to judge usually have issues of there own.
People in the past who have hurt my feelings got the gradification of knowing it had hurt me. Now.. I have adapted a new attitude.......
" If someone slaps my face, I'll kiss there cheek"
It really works in all situations...Although some people probley will think your crazy...thats ok...It scares the other RUDE people off !! ......Oh the power of a smile! :roll: :spin: :daze:
Raindancer :wave:

[Andy Davies]

Hi Raindancer,

How kind of you to make your second post on this forum to this thread. Welcome to the Active Carber support group, and thank you too for the quality and content of your contribution, which I really appreciate. I have virtually retired from active posting here for the time being, because I am persuing other long-term goals which take up a lot of my time right now, but I felt the need to break my silence in order to send you this reply.

Best wishes,

Andy

[freydis]

When I tell people this story, they usually accuse me of lying. I swear it is true.

My youngest aunt died around this time last year, of cancer deep in her spine. She fought it relatively successfully for over a decade and managed to last longer than my mother did with her diabetic complications. But, x-number of years ago, when she was first diagnosed with cancer, she had to have a 20-lb tumor removed from her stomach. She turned to all the women at our family reunion dining table conversation and said, "Thank God it was a tumor. I thought I was getting fat."

That expresses how deep the hatred of fat was in my family. My brothers, even the youngest who followed me like a puppy when we were young, thinks very little of me and mine because of our sizes. Hurtful things have been said since I was five. To make matters worse, they were, and still are, chauvinists. One of my brothers, when my son was ten and beginning to chunk up just a little, told me that he (my son) would never be a real man. He said that my mother's influence and my influence on my son, during the time my husband was in Korea for a year (age 2 for my son) had made my child a wimp who would never fit into the world of "real men." That he pitied both my "------whipped husband" and my "wimpy" son. And, then, proceeded to tell me that his weight would be a double strike against him and didn't I care enough about my child to do something about it.

My nephew, this brother's son, is chunky now. I worry about his mental health because of some of the things he has told me his father says to him.

I was always a big person, big-boned with a strong appetite for everything in life, including food. But, I was relatively normal for a big-boned person until other people became involved. Thanks to the uncle married to the aunt above, my mom put me on a diet at age 5. I remember having seasonal bulimia at Thanksgiving and Christmas - only then, and only from about age 12-14. I remember starving myself at age 16, eating literally one meal per week, to lose weight and then being told that my best weight was never going to be good enough. Even with ALL this unhealthy behavior and abuse, I managed to stay somewhat healthy and relatively normal for a big-boned person UNTIL doctors put me on a low-fat regimen.

Don't tell me I don't have willpower. I stayed low-fat for over ten years and got better and better at doing that lifestyle. Doctors and relatives think I "just wasn't doing it right," but they were wrong. I was doing it right. It just wasn't working. I kept getting bigger and sicker - and, according to them, it was my fault, my failure. Nobody ever said things like, "Oh, you used to be so pretty when you were thinner," because I was NEVER thin enough for them, but they clearly thought I just needed to eat less.

Do you know that my mother went for 8 years without help with her diabetes because every time she went back to the doctor for a check-up, he would tell her to control it with diet alone? She went down to 250 calories/day at one point in her attempts to control her blood sugars with diet alone. When she realized she would literally have to starve to lower them, she finally had the strength to FORCE her doctor to help.

Atkins was my last hope before surgery, but I didn't even know about it, or low-carbing - none of it - prior to a few years ago. Furthermore, having dieted my whole life, there was no reason to believe that THIS diet would be any better than any of the others. Most people consider Atkins a quack - why would I try another diet by another quack?

Those of you who think, still, that each person has control over their own destiny, consider please that sometimes the key to our destiny is out of reach. My key was Atkins. Was it my destiny to wait 41 years until I was sick as a dog to find that key? Obviously, the answer is yes because it happened that way. But, did it HAVE to be that way? If doctors had been more informed, more open-minded, mightn't they have saved me a LOT of pain? Saved my mother a few more years? I truly regret that I didn't find Atkins sooner, but it wasn't for lack of willpower.

Before you blame the victim, before you look at that 400-lb person who "doesn't care about his looks," before you accuse anyone, find out if they have the key to their own survival. Without it, everyone is doomed.

I'm giving my key to my children. It's not too late for them.

[Andy Davies]

Hi Freydis,

Thank you for that important and heartrending contribution. I, for one, am well aware that this still goes on, and that some people have to suffer for many years unnecessarily as a result of ignorance, bigotry and closed minds, and that people like you are still on the receiving end of it. I'm truly sorry you had to go through this, and I am trying in my own way to do something about it. Good luck to you and your family in the future, and I hope the nephew emerges without too many scars.

Andy

[liz175]

Freydis,

Your post made me cry. I also grew up in a family where weight was the measure of a person's worth and my parents starting putting me on diets at as early an age as I can remember. However, when I look at childhood pictures, I was big, not fat. It's awful what parents can do to their children, all the while thinking they are acting in their best interest. I pray that I am not unknowingly doing something so awful to my children. I can easily picture my mother or my grandmother being grateful that they had a tumor rather than a weight problem.

Even today, it hurts that my mother continues to consider me a failure because of my weight. And then she wonders why I almost never bring my kids to visit her. I don't visit because I can't stand her staring accusingly at every morsel I put in my mouth!

I too did not know how to lose weight -- I struggled with lowfat, low calorie diets for years -- until discovering Atkins. Now I am astonished at how easy it is. I wasn't gluttonous or unusually lacking in willpower, I just didn't know why I kept gaining weight and I asked many doctors, none of whom knew either. I found out about Atkins reading an article in the New York Times in July; before that I always dismissed him as a quack. Usually I'm a skeptical person; I don't know why I so readily accepted the mainstream evaluation of Atkins for so many years.

I'm having a doctor related issue right now. My ankle, which I broke ten years ago, has been bothering me off and on for several months. My husband, who is average weight, keeps telling me to go to the doctor. I don't see any point in going to the doctor, because I know the doctor will blame the problem on my weight. However, if my husband went in with the same problem, the doctor would treat it seriously. Sad, isn't it? I need a new doctor, but don't know how to find one who will treat me seriously and not just assume every issue I have is a result of obesity. Maybe the recurring ankle problem is a result of obesity, but without checking for other causes how can the doctor know that?

Best wishes to you. I hope you are successful in giving the key to your children.

[freydis]

Liz, you have come so far in your weight loss! This is my suggestion. Tell your doctor that you are seriously working at losing weight (as proven by loss already), and that you are honestly in pain. Ask him to help you treat your problem until the weight comes off enough to make a difference. If he STILL won't help you, he should be replaced immediately. (And, you might consider looking for a replacement, anyway.)

If you know any nurses who live in your area, ask them to recommend someone who would be a good doctor and sympathetic to your problems without being judgemental about your size. I know good doctors exist because I have one now, but they are VERY rare. I wish you MUCH luck and better health.

My mother died because she couldn't stand up for herself to the doctors who abused her. I almost died because a doctor ignored the pain in my left arm and said it was a pinched nerve. Please don't be another victim. If you can't stand up for yourself about this, will you do it when the problem threatens your life?

[TriciaW]

I just read this entire post and need to add my two cents. I can remember being 7 or 8 years old. My father had just re-married (wife #3) a very thin, blond beauty (read: trophy wife). She was not a nice lady. It was summer time and I was visiting dad for the summer. We were at the pool and I was in a two piece bathing suit. Step monster began admonishing me to stand up straight and suck in my fat gut because I was embarrassing her. I was mortified. She kept poking at my stomach and started calling me chunky. She would only do that out of ear-shot of dad, of course. He never understood my deep and sincere dislike for that woman.

That was the beginning of my battle with body image. My dad got custody of me soon after. She had me on diets from day one. So, out of rebellion I would eat when no-one was around. I was on the swim team in high school, swimming over a mile a day 5 days a week and still thought I was huge. Incredible. It was only in my late 20's did I realize that my personal happiness is my own responsibility and that blaming my woes on my lousy childhood was a dead end. Learning to love one's self can be a lengthy process. At least it has been for me....

[Andy Davies]

Thanks Tricia. I'm sorry you had to endure such treatment at the hands of your "step-monster" (a great phrase, which if you don't mind I'll borrow when appropriate). One thing strikes me about the interaction between the two of you: how restrained and measured you are in the way you speak about her, compared to her open and flagrantly abusive treatment of you - except where your Dad might have discovered her, of course. Even after all these years, and in spite of what she made you go through, your remarks are controlled, almost respectful.

This whole thread has been, for me, an illuminating and surprising investigation of how those of us who cannot metabolise carbohydrates effectively are treated by those who can, and how that makes us feel and respond. Some of these reactions have been very surprising, and although I cannot speak for others, I am still learning from it. I do hope that telling your story has been in some way cathartic, and that it can help you let go of the anger and the injustice. Incidentally, if your current picture is anything like you were then, this woman's treatment of you was even more unreasonable. Your shape looks perfect to me, and anyone who can swim that far every day can't be carrying much excess weight.

Happy Christmas.

[TriciaW]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy Davies
[B] One thing strikes me about the interaction between the two of you: how restrained and measured you are in the way you speak about her, compared to her open and flagrantly abusive treatment of you - except where your Dad might have discovered her, of course. Even after all these years, and in spite of what she made you go through, your remarks are controlled, almost respectful. "

Well, my attitude towards her took a long time to even out to what it is now. That remark was just the tip of the ice berg of her foul treatment for years to come. I carried out-and-out venomous hatred for the woman for years. Over the last 8 years or so, I have really tried to work on releasing "baggage"---negative, heavy emotional burdens. I guess I have finally reached feelings of apathy towards her instead of hate. It feels like progress. Thanks for the kind words, Andy. Happy Christmas to you too!

[Daethian]

I have a older sister who has hospitalized herself two different times by following fad diets and taking drugs to lose weight. All my life she has hounded me about being fat all the while forcing me to eat when at her house. I was a size 9 in high school about one size above ideal and she just never relented. Here I am today double that.

On the upside of all the bad things that we deal with being overweight, I remember a good thing that happened after I dropped alot of weight with Phen Fen.

I walked into a vaccum repair shop one summer day and there were two men working. You know in slap stick comedies how two people will try to come through a door way together and get stuck. These two salesmen looked up through the window in their office when I walked in and did the exact same thing. They were falling all over me. It was great! :D

[Andy Davies]

Thanks to you both. Tricia, I think the additional perspective afforded by stating how you felt before you were finally able to put it behind you was as important as the original information. Without it, the amount of suffering, your greatness of character, and the measure of your progress would not be evident. We often omit this stage when recounting past difficulties, anxious not to be seen complaining, or just plain embarrassed by what we have had to endure in getting to the point we have now reached. There is of course an underlying injustice in the way we are treated, because it is not actually our fault that we gain weight in the way that we do, but everyone else assumes that it is, and acts accordingly. Congratulations on such impressive progress.

And to put things into perspective for us that there can be a lighter and funnier side to things, thanks to Daethian. Many happy returns, incidentally, for your birthday of a few days ago.

Best wishes,

Andy

[suebean]

Homegirl, I think you missed the boat here.

Susan

[Homegirl]

Not sure exactly what you mean?????

[Andy Davies]

I started this thread and take a keen, even proprietorial, interest in it. Like Homegirl, I was rather surprised by Suebean's remarks. I have checked back to Homegirl's last postings here, which were in February 2002, but I can't see anything that merits such a remark. It seems to me that Homegirl was talking a lot of good sense and being her usual helpful self, sometimes in the face of hostile remarks. I think you had better be rather more specific, Suebean, or people might be likely to interpret your remark as hostile and unfounded.

[SummerYet]

Wow...has this thread been a roller coaster!

I started reading this today and I was in tears because a lot of it hit home and some experiences just made me sad about society.

Then I started getting a knot in my stomach because af the "debating" going on...I didnt think that was the point of the thread.

Then everything leveled off again and ended on a better note...I realize this is an "old" thread...but the stories ring true no matter when you read them...

Thank you,
~Michelle

[spongebutt]

I just wanted to add my two cents:

I work as a nurses' assistant/caregiver for disabled people.

An LPN (who is overweight), another caregiver (who's normal), and I were at the park in Puget Sound pushing three of them in their wheelchairs.

Now keep in mind that I'm a size FOUR. I heard these women (not my co-workers) talking about me! :confused:

I had jeans that had a repair in the behind (I bought them second-hand) because I don't wear good clothes to work (I get all sorts of bodily fluids on me and there's no sense in ruining good clothes). They were discussing how natty my jeans looked and how my big butt probably ripped them open.

I figured these two females were teenagers, but when I turned around to let them know I had heard them, I was surprised to learn that these women were in their early forties !
They just giggled when I looked at them (I kept my mouth shut), seemed a tad embarrassed, and then proceeded to verbally destroy a co-worker of theirs.
And neither of these women were model-types, either.

It's amazing how intolerant some people are. Would they make fun of me if they knew how much weight I've lost?? :(

[Homegirl]

I am always surprised when this old thread pops up again and again (it's on my subscribed list) but I agree that all the stories are still relevant.

Take care everyone!

[Andy Davies]

It's more than 2 years now since I looked in here, but I'm glad to see recent messages show that both new and returning members still find the messages relevant and helpful. I was sorry, but at the same time still interested, to learn about Spongebutt's experiences...yet another facet of the way people deal with anything but an anorexic body shape. I wonder whether such rude people actually realise they are overweight themselves and disregard it, or whether they actually think of themselves as thinner than they are. Anyhow, I for one am very impressed with your statistics Spongebutt, and impressed too by your self control in a clearly trying and threatening situation.

[dearmommy]

Pretty much everything said here hit home for me. I often fantasized what kind of retort I would reply with to unkind words if only I was more spontaneous. I realized soon enough though that the same people I would have replied to with a witty quip would more than likely be unable to understand and feel obligated to again make uncalled for remarks to cover up their feelings of inadequacy.

[KaiNiki]

This thread was great,
It made me think about a conversation I had with my mother. We were talking about the possibility of my 10 year highschool reunion and I told her that I wanted to be successful when I went back. She asked what successful was and I was so warped I thought it meant thin. I have gotten a degree with two majors, been accepted to grad and law school, but none of it mattered if I was still fat. Thank God I don't feel that way anymore, my reunion is next year Oct. and if I go, I will go back with my head held high no matter what my weight.

[TarHeel]

I've been a member of the forum for close to three years. Never have I read a thread that affected me as this one has. Just amazing.....sociologically, stylistically, and historically, etc.

I'm envious of members who were around in 2001. They expressed themselves so well. But I have to wonder where they all are today? I do hope they have left because they met their goals before changing their stats. Thanks for resurrecting this, Andy.

You may think that at my weight, I don't need to be reading this thread. Think again. My nickname in high school was "Stumpy." It hurt.

Kay

[Homegirl]

Well, I am still here! Not around every day as I used to be but I still pop in every now and then to update my journal and check in on a few people who were around when I was in the thick of getting control of my weight and my health.

Happy to say I am in more of a maintainance mode. I am still applying a lot of what I learned in my seach for a healthier body and a more appropriate scale weight (for me).

Is my body shape perfect? No. Is my body fat evenly and pleasingly distributed? No. Do I look like I did when I was 20? No. Am I healthy? Yes! Am I active? Yes! Am I grateful that I have a strong, healthy body? Yes! Am I comfortable with myself? Yes! Do I feel good about myself and my accomplishments (in all areas of life) Yes! Am I happy? Yes! Yes! Yes!

Cheers every body!

[Mousesmom]

My nickname in high school was "Stumpy." It hurt.
Kay

Cruel nicknames are a subject that really resonated with me.

I have tons of stories of the abuse from family, children from school and their parents, the general public and people who I used to think of as friends. It was enough to put me into therapy. From my classmates at school throwing things at me (rocks, spit balls), calling me names and destroying everything I brought to school, even cutting off one of my ponytails and then there was the day I was pushed in front of a moving bus by older classmates...... to rude cat calls on the street from men who didn't even know me... to my family's constant reminders what a disappointment I was (and still am to a certain degree).... the men who though early puberty was cute and sexy.....and all the people who could have helped me but didn't - but I digress (as usual!)

When I was in junior high school, there was an English comedy on TV called "On the Buses" (some of you might remember it). One of the main characters was an overweight, dowdy, shy, eternally-single woman called "Olive". That became my nickname when I was 13 (size 16 and ~ 200#) in grade 8. I was voted most likely to commit suicide by my class mates that year. The school I went to was all jocks and brains - I was the smart-but-fat girl the teachers loved and the kids despised.

I left that school the following year and didn't see anyone from there for about 6 years. I was in a local shop where I found one of my worst tormenters. He addressed me as "Olive". I was 19 (size 12 and ~ 175#)! My then-DH wasn't impressed and offered to teach this moron a lesson. I did it instead: I got him fired. I saw this jerk a few years ago (I'm now 38) and guess what he called me?

I write all of this to illustrate that NONE of it stopped me from becoming who I am now. I had the lowest self esteem in the universe, but I clawed my way back.

I was humiliated, abused, beaten and mercilessly teased. But I'm still here. That means I won.

The best revenge is living well.

Julie

[klc145]

Wow Mousesmom...your story really touched me. I cannot believe that they actually had a "most likely to commit suicide" category, that is just AWFUL!!! It is sad to think that people can be so hurtful to others. But, I like you, have experienced similar things. It is so sad that we have to treat each other so poorly...

But, like you said, "the best revenge is living well." What a great way to take something negative and turn it right around!

[KaiNiki]

I was voted most likely to commit suicide by my class mates that year.
Julie

This disgusts me, what the he#& was wrong with the school that they allowed something like this!?!?!?

[Mousesmom]

They created that category just for me - school scapegoat. The teachers couldn't do anything about it - some tried. My parents wouldn't help so I left the school.

Thanks for being as horrified as I am about this!!!! If anything remotely like this happened to my DD I'd be calling the police!

Julie

[Citruskiss]

Very interesting thread - tough to read though.

I'd have to say that my worst experience with this sort of thing was with my ex boyfriend.

Um...for some reason he wasn't interested in being intimate, and after a couple of years, I started asking questions (gently and kindly), and was stunned to hear that it was because I'd gained weight. He went on to tell me that he'd never had this "problem" with anyone else, and that it was all my fault for putting weight on.

That seriously hurt my feelings for a very long time. I've never felt so rejected in my whole life.

Guess that's why he's my EX boyfriend.

I'm happily married now, but geez...back then I felt awful about my body image and I began to believe I was ugly, unloveable and unwanted.

[cyndip]

wow, what a thread. I just really related to so much of it. I was a size 12 through high school, I was well toned and active. and I was fat compared to my size 6 friends. I was call petunia the pig. I was oinked at. I was called Dolly in reference to my large breasts. I was made to feel inferior in every way. at home an abusive stepfather call me piglet, pig, oink. etc. and once even felt the need to take a tape measure to my butt. I was called Bertha big butt. My butt is actually kinda small in comparison to my belly and breast. I felt like I deserved all of this. I liked food. I carried alot of anger for alot of years. I carried alot of hurt. I have a husband and family who love me no matter what. I have a husband who tells me I am good, and beautiful and smart and a good mother. Its just a shame that all that is part of my past. Its a shame that as an adult I am still scared to go to the grocery store or eat in public or apply for jobs. I now carry alot of fear . slowly I am moving through the fear and here on this site I have discovered hope. I am holding onto that hope with both hands. My friends percieve me as beauty ,funny, nuturing and loving. strangers despise me. Hostility is pointed in my direction . the only other people I have seen get this type of hostility from strangers are gay men.

[Lessara]

I haven't read this in 5 years, wow! Its funny how its so relavant now. I work in a male dominated field and I game with a male dominated group (though I will admit it has more females than any gaming group I've ever been in - and I'm 41!)
I have been trying and trying to figure out makeup and doing my hair and such to look more feminine and to look professional (for men view woman as more professional if they do this stuff)

I'm sick of it. I am still getting no more respect and I'm making myself so unhappy. I don't like makeup, I don't like doing my hair up with mouse and hairspray. I'm not saying I'm messy. I'm simple. I make sure my skin and teeth are healthy. And I will admit I'm cute. I decided to cut my hair and ditch the hair dye.
I'm going to be an example for my daughter and her friends, to show my male gaming friends that a woman is not defined by her appearance but what she does, no different that a man should be defined. I'm not trying to look sloppy or plain. I am anything but plain. But I'm not dressing up if it makes me so unhappy. I'm going to show a woman comfortable with herself. For I am :cool:

ps I am wearing what is appropriate for church, work events and so on. I am not anti-social :D You should see the cute little black dress I got, it goes to my knees :D

[Lessara]

Artist: Deborah Cox Lyrics
Song: Absolutely Not Lyrics

Always waitin' for someone
To make me happy, pick me up
I realize that someone is me
What you call life, that ain't livin'
Bless the child that's got his own
It's my season, now I stand alone
Just thought that I would let you know
Some things you just can't control

Chorus:
Should I wear my hair in a ponytail?
Should I dress myself up in chanel?
Do I measure me by what you think?
Absolutely not, absolutely not
If I go to work in a mini-skirt
Am I givin' you the right to flirt?
I won't compromise my point of view
Absolutely not, absolutely not

Told myself I won't complain
But some things have got to change
Not gon' be a victim of
All your social push and shove
Right or wrong, you judge the same
My picture never fit your frame
What you thought, you'll never know
You can't see me with your mind closed

Repeat Chorus

Now I see, life means more to me
More than fancy clothes
More than you'll ever know
All the ugly words that I heard you say
Made me stronger everyday
Now I live my life for me

[RhondaK]

I had the opposite problem growing up....I was so scrawny I was picked on , beat up and called names by most everyone. Oddly enough it was usually the kids with the weight problems (being overweight) that resorted to beating on me. I was 11 years old and weighed 50 lbs. I was 17 and weighed 110. I didn't get fat until I had my second child. Then my 3rd and then a 4th and then just years go by and I am over 200 lbs and realize I had been overweight for the better part of the last 15 years. I have seen my mother cry because I got fat she has tried to bribe me, guilt trip me tell me I have no pride to let this happen. All my aunts and uncles say what a shame and how could this have happened.
I used to ask God if this was a sick joke. Gonna be rail thin first half of life and then obese for the second half. It was like I couldn't win.
I am down 50 pounds now since May 1st I saw my dad a month ago and he CRIED!!!! He said " Now this is the daughter I had 15 years ago , It's so great to have you back. Like HELLO ...I am same person and I haven't been anywhere but before you all were too ashamed to even claim me. It REALLY ticked me off. That comment hurt me more then anything anyone ever said to me. There's my daughter?!?!? I've been here the whole time so how are you making up for making me feel like a worthless loser during my "FAT" years? I also wonder if I ever gain it back again will I disappear in their reality again?
I do this for me, thank God because I am the only one who truly matters. Me and my health.
Been Too thin been Too fat aiming for somewhere in the middle this time for the 3rd quarter of my life.

[starrunner]

." There's my daughter?!?!? I've been here the whole time so how are you making up for making me feel like a worthless loser during my "FAT" years? I also wonder if I ever gain it back again will I disappear in their reality again?"

"I do this for me, thank God because I am the only one who truly matters. Me and my health. "
Rhonda,
I'm sorry you had to deal with that attitude from your family.
You are very strong, and I am proud of you for taking care of yourself, and knowing that you are the one that matters... :thup:

[Dragon61]

Rhonda,

All the putdowns and brush offs by strangers can never equal the pain one thoughtless remark by our loved ones can cause. While your family probably think they are being supportive with their remarks, I do understand why these are causing you pain. Keep with it and look after yourself.

One suggestion is to write down every remark and how it made you feel and maybe someday you'll be able to explain to your family how these remarks hurt you.

[SissyPoo]

I once went to a glassware party with a friend who invited me to go along with her. I did not know the hostess of the party but went with my friend because each person was asked to bring a friend and I was her friend.

When we arrived at the party I started to sit on the sofa and the hostess rudely told me not to sit on it because I was to big and might damage it. She went to her laundry room and got me on of those old metal folding chairs to sit in. I did try to sit in it but it was really uncomfortable and hurt my butt to but most of all I was embrassed so bad that I felt like crying. I just told my friend to take me home that I would not be treated rudely like that by anyone and I made sure the hostess and everyone heard me say it to.


By the way the hostess lost two sales that night, mine and my friends....

[Andy Davies]

Hi All,

For the benefit of Kay (TarHeel) particularly, I would like to explain the reason for my occasional visits to this thread. Every year on my birthday in September, the low-carber team send me an e-mail wishing me a happy birthday, attaching also a link to this site, which I used to visit at least once a day. So I click on the link, thinking I'll have a read of what's going on now in the world of low-carbing, and spend half an hour or so browsing round the whole site. Then, I come across this section of threads that have been preserved through all these years, and notice that this thread is - amazingly -still here. So then I wonder if anyone has visited again since I last looked in, at least a year before, and go straight to the back page, from where I work backwards, till I find my own last entry, then I read everything in between. There I find that others have visited and left remarks which always touch me. Still, after all these years, I read about really nice people who have been treated really badly by unthinking, uncaring, unhelpful people whose IQ is smaller than their shoe size. And yet I still feel I have gained by reading them. Firstly, we have all been victims of these insensitive people who have made us feel wretched, so I get a notion of companionship, comradeship and rapport. Then, I am genuinely impressed by what my fellow sufferers have survived, and feel a mixture of anger that they should have had to tolerate it, combined with pride and inspiration because they did. Then I think of myself sitting here on the south coast of England thousands of miles away from many of the readers of this thread, but feeling far closer to them than to many of my neighbours and compatriots. Finally, I feel it is cathartic for us all to bare our souls in this way in this safe place, knowing that your readers are going to be sympathetic and in all probability have similar experiences of their own to describe.

After that, I feel compelled to write something more as a result of what I have read, and this makes the thread "current" again. It gets seen by a new batch of readers, who feel compelled to add something, and then when I get my next birthday message I find more postings, and answer them again. Incidentally, just in case you are wondering why I did not reply in September, I moved house and lost my broadband link for a couple of months this year. When I finally managed to get back online, there were 3,000 messages in my e-mail inbox, including the one that linked me back to this site. As for where other people are now, I can see that Homegirl and Lessara are still visiting from time to time, and I suspect that Doreen and Rosebud are still very busy around the site; also I have seen Natrushka's name on a recent posting. So some of the "old" crowd are still around. As for me, I am still losing weight and still having to work at it, but don't feel I have anything new to offer that I haven't already posted elsewhere. I now suffer from arthritis in my feet and ankles, and from chronic venous insufficiency, with frequent bouts of ulceration. Naturally, the medical people (doctors, nurses, even receptionists) all assume that these medical conditions are brought about by my weight, and refuse to believe it when I say that I was suffering from chronic venous insufficiency for years before my weight escalated. Luckily my blood pressure and cholesterol readings are both low, I don't smoke and I don't drink, so the medical people are not too sanctimonious with me. Even so, they still act as if I deserve it!

I must recount one embarrassing experience I had recently. After a prolonged bout of leg ulcers, I was finally able to go swimming for the first time in 15 months. Swimming is a great activity, because you can exercise every muscle in your body, you can work at your own pace, you can gradually build up the activity over a period of time, and best of all the water's buoyancy supports you, giving all your leg joints relief from having to carry your weight around while you are exercising. All went well until it was time to get out. The workout was unhurried, but fairly intense, and I was tingling with a feeling of good health. But then I found that I couldn't get out of the pool! The steps were not wide enough for me to get my whole foot on, and because of the arthritis in my feet and ankles I was unable to walk up them with only the front half of the foot making contact. I tried hauling myself out of the shallow end, but the arthritis meant I could not push with my feet, and I was unable to pull myself out with just my arms. Of course, the other swimmers in the pool assumed it was my weight that was preventing me from getting out. In the end, the lifeguard went to his store cupboard (or closet) and extracted a heavy plastic manikin used for teaching resuscitation to life-savers. With the rest of the pool watching his every move, he brought it down to the shallow end, filled it with water so that it sank, and I was finally able to climb out by standing on it and hauling myself up with my arms. He told me that next time he would have to use the hoist to get me out. So I made enquiries and found out that a disabled group use the pool once a week, and all their members need to use the hoist to get in and out, so I guess I'll be joining the disabled group so that I don't stand out each time I enter and leave the water! Interestingly, when I have used other swimming pools, they have had steps wide enough for me to get out myself, by simply walking up them.

Good luck to everybody. I think you are all amazing, and I wish you all well.

Andy

[addict1000]

Well this was a very painful read this morning. My heart just weeps for all who have experienced such rejection and rudeness, especially those childhood experiences.

It has stirred up some emotional baggage that I have going to have to deal with of my own.

My tormenter is my mother. I know she loves me and she is a good, loving mother. She is caught up in her own weight issues and thinks she is helping me.

She has said recently:

" I am worried because you are getting so big"
" Are your birth control pills causing your weight gain"
" Could you have a thyroid problem"

All this is unsolicited and of course she has given me the "I am concerned about your health" talk.

and she has admitted that I am an embarrasment to her. (that one really hurts...like a punch in the gut)

It is really difficult for me emotionally, I mean for goodness sakes I am a size 14! It could be a lot worse, but that is irrelevant. It is about acceptance.

She does not accept me as I am and that is what is most painful. There is constant pushing to color my gray hair, lose weight, get my nails done etc.

When I do meet my goal, I am just as worried about hearing the positive comments she will give me, because I know that she doesn't accept the real me, it is all superficial.

I have to deal with this soon because I am going to see her for Christmas next week.